Discussion:
Indian call staff quit over abuse on the line
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AllEmailDeletedImmediately
2005-06-03 16:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Indian call staff quit over abuse on the line

Firms provide counselling to help staff insulted by British customers

Amelia Gentleman, New Delhi
Sunday May 29, 2005
The Observer

Abuse from British and American customers is driving increasing numbers of
Indian call centre workers from their jobs, defeated by the strain of
handling persistent rudeness.

Irate customers was cited as one of the main industry stress factors in a
recent survey of call centre staff and some organisations have begun
employing psychiatrists and counsellors to help employees to cope.

'I've had people tell me, "Back off, Paki, and don't call me again", said
Eugene, 27, whose former employer, Spectrumind, provided an accounts
services for BT. 'There was a lot of racist abuse once people detected from
our accents that we weren't English. I saw girls reduced to tears by it.'

Pooja Chopra, 29, from Delhi, who spent two years fielding calls for BT
Cellnet and America Online, faced similar abuse. 'People would say, "You're
a Paki, I don't want to talk to you, pass me to someone who can speak my
language".

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1494871,00.html
diddy
2005-06-03 16:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Indian call staff quit over abuse on the line
Firms provide counselling to help staff insulted by British customers
Amelia Gentleman, New Delhi
Sunday May 29, 2005
The Observer
Abuse from British and American customers is driving increasing
numbers of Indian call centre workers from their jobs, defeated by the
strain of handling persistent rudeness.
Irate customers was cited as one of the main industry stress factors
in a recent survey of call centre staff and some organisations have
begun employing psychiatrists and counsellors to help employees to
cope.
'I've had people tell me, "Back off, Paki, and don't call me again",
said Eugene, 27, whose former employer, Spectrumind, provided an
accounts services for BT. 'There was a lot of racist abuse once people
detected from our accents that we weren't English. I saw girls reduced
to tears by it.'
Pooja Chopra, 29, from Delhi, who spent two years fielding calls for
BT Cellnet and America Online, faced similar abuse. 'People would say,
"You're a Paki, I don't want to talk to you, pass me to someone who
can speak my language".
In my experience foriegn tech support is equally as frustrating, driving
people to tears who simply want straight forward, polite tech support.

Only on rare occassion have I ever encountered HELPFUL, MEANINGFUL tech
support from delhi. I'm sure the tears were mutual. It's not the americans
or english as much at fault as the companies that use outsourced
techsupport. People EXPECT tech support to be NON-ABUSIVE, understandable,
courteous, and correct.
This is NOT the case with outsourced tech support. How can you get help if
you can't understand each other? I sent a computer (new, been used less
than a DOZEN times) in to have a fan issue fixed. The Indian Tech support
took the computer back ok, and they fixed the fan, and RESOLD it as a
refurbished item. I told them I wanted it fixed. They fixed it ok. And
then they didn't even bother to compensate me for the data they sold, or
for the $3,000 computer they took.
When I contacted them, asking for my computer, they said, oh you wanted it
BACK?
Oh duh!
I wanted it FIXED. Over a year of struggling with them, and finally getting
the local tv consumer line in for help, I finally got "A" (but not mine)
computer replacement. And they wonder why Americans are frustrated with
outsourced computer tech support! Sheesh.
If they are unintelligable, unintelligent and incompetent, they deserve to
be FIRED, and not just quit.
Sorry, no sympathis from this perspective.
Tush Smells Bush Kills!!!!!!!!!!!
2005-06-03 16:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, their accents are annoying as hell. I gotta keep asking them to
repeat themselves because it's difficult to understand. But they are
friendly and eager to please.
diddy
2005-06-03 16:58:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tush Smells Bush Kills!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, their accents are annoying as hell. I gotta keep asking them to
repeat themselves because it's difficult to understand. But they are
friendly and eager to please.
Only when they haven't made the mistake. They do not admit culpability well
and cover up. And then blame their incompetence on YOU>
Tush Smells Bush Kills!!!!!!!!!!!
2005-06-03 20:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Well I did have a problem with a "dot-head" once, when I called tech
support for a problem with my satellite modem. She had me go through 2
hours of diagnostics, then told me that the problem was with the cables
and that *I* need to replace them. I asked why she couldn't send them
and she claimed they don't carry them. WTF?

Anyways, the problem was with the modems themselves and it took over a
month talking to these buffoons to get them replaced.
h***@bellsouth.net
2005-06-06 00:55:11 UTC
Permalink
I'm so sorry we bought a Dell because of this. I gave up calling the tech
support, even though I paid extra for it. The so-called techs always give
non-India names also, as if we couldn't tell. American business people
don't want to pay 7.00 an hour for American call center employees. It's
really pathetic.

Barb
Post by diddy
Post by Tush Smells Bush Kills!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, their accents are annoying as hell. I gotta keep asking them to
repeat themselves because it's difficult to understand. But they are
friendly and eager to please.
Only when they haven't made the mistake. They do not admit culpability well
and cover up. And then blame their incompetence on YOU>
Tush Smells Bush Kills!!!!!!!!!!!
2005-06-07 01:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bellsouth.net
I'm so sorry we bought a Dell because of this. I gave up calling the tech
support, even though I paid extra for it. The so-called techs always give
non-India names also, as if we couldn't tell.
Yeah, I saw this on "60 minutes." They adopt "Western" names so as not
to offend us. Too bad they don't do the same with their accents.
Post by h***@bellsouth.net
American business people
don't want to pay 7.00 an hour for American call center employees. It's
really pathetic.
Well, what do you expect.... when you got a president who rewards
corporations for outsourcing American jobs.
George Grapman
2005-06-07 01:36:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tush Smells Bush Kills!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by h***@bellsouth.net
I'm so sorry we bought a Dell because of this. I gave up calling the tech
support, even though I paid extra for it. The so-called techs always give
non-India names also, as if we couldn't tell.
Yeah, I saw this on "60 minutes." They adopt "Western" names so as not
to offend us. Too bad they don't do the same with their accents.
The accents do not offend me, it is their total lack of knowledge
and the fact that, in the case of my ISP, they have been programmed to
always blame the user.
Post by Tush Smells Bush Kills!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by h***@bellsouth.net
American business people
don't want to pay 7.00 an hour for American call center employees. It's
really pathetic.
Well, what do you expect.... when you got a president who rewards
corporations for outsourcing American jobs.
Wit all the pool of educated people why haven't and CEO's been
outsourced to India?
--
To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell
j***@intergate.com
2005-06-07 02:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tush Smells Bush Kills!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by h***@bellsouth.net
I'm so sorry we bought a Dell because of this. I gave up calling the tech
support, even though I paid extra for it. The so-called techs always give
non-India names also, as if we couldn't tell.
Yeah, I saw this on "60 minutes." They adopt "Western" names so as not
to offend us. Too bad they don't do the same with their accents.
The funniest call I ever got was a guy with an obvious Indian accent
calling himself Carlos Sanchez. He wanted to offer me a platinum mumble
mumble mumble. "You wanna give me a platinum Metallica record!?!?!"
"Sir I do not understand what that means." Too bad.
h***@hotmail.com
2005-06-07 03:37:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@intergate.com
Post by Tush Smells Bush Kills!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by h***@bellsouth.net
I'm so sorry we bought a Dell because of this. I gave up calling the tech
support, even though I paid extra for it. The so-called techs always give
non-India names also, as if we couldn't tell.
Yeah, I saw this on "60 minutes." They adopt "Western" names so as not
to offend us. Too bad they don't do the same with their accents.
The funniest call I ever got was a guy with an obvious Indian accent
calling himself Carlos Sanchez. He wanted to offer me a platinum mumble
mumble mumble. "You wanna give me a platinum Metallica record!?!?!"
"Sir I do not understand what that means." Too bad.
Start talking back using pidgen english or a nonsense language that
has just enough english words interspersed to make it sound credible.
j***@intergate.com
2005-06-07 03:42:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by j***@intergate.com
Post by Tush Smells Bush Kills!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by h***@bellsouth.net
I'm so sorry we bought a Dell because of this. I gave up calling the tech
support, even though I paid extra for it. The so-called techs always give
non-India names also, as if we couldn't tell.
Yeah, I saw this on "60 minutes." They adopt "Western" names so as not
to offend us. Too bad they don't do the same with their accents.
The funniest call I ever got was a guy with an obvious Indian accent
calling himself Carlos Sanchez. He wanted to offer me a platinum mumble
mumble mumble. "You wanna give me a platinum Metallica record!?!?!"
"Sir I do not understand what that means." Too bad.
Start talking back using pidgen english or a nonsense language that
has just enough english words interspersed to make it sound credible.
Just using a lot of slang can have the same effect. I even remember a
german guy I traded stuff writing me back saying "what means this word
'yikes' - its not in my dictionary"

I really got to get off my lazy ass and start recording these calls. My
name is John Smith but I am in the phone book under J Smith, no
address, just a telephone number (Phone Co wanted to CHARGE to not list
the #) so I get collections and telemarketing calls for Joe Smith Jane
Smith, Jumana Smith etc. I always either mess with the callers or just
hang up depending on my mood at the time.
Mop Jockey's Daddy
2005-06-07 22:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@intergate.com
Post by Tush Smells Bush Kills!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by h***@bellsouth.net
I'm so sorry we bought a Dell because of this. I gave up calling the tech
support, even though I paid extra for it. The so-called techs always
give non-India names also, as if we couldn't tell.
Yeah, I saw this on "60 minutes." They adopt "Western" names so as not
to offend us. Too bad they don't do the same with their accents.
The funniest call I ever got was a guy with an obvious Indian accent
calling himself Carlos Sanchez. He wanted to offer me a platinum mumble
mumble mumble. "You wanna give me a platinum Metallica record!?!?!"
"Sir I do not understand what that means." Too bad.
I've heard that the ability to understand accents is directly proportional
to intelligence. The fact that stupid white people tend to clump together
and disassociate themselves from other nationalities helps too, I'm sure.
--
AUK Signature Template FORM 0021-A
<Insert a really funny quote from teh mopjockey here and then call anyone
who quotes *you* in a sig as displaying "0wnership" to keep up with the
whole "oblivious hypocritical zombie" act.>
The Real Bev
2005-06-07 03:25:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tush Smells Bush Kills!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by h***@bellsouth.net
I'm so sorry we bought a Dell because of this. I gave up calling the tech
support, even though I paid extra for it. The so-called techs always give
non-India names also, as if we couldn't tell.
Yeah, I saw this on "60 minutes." They adopt "Western" names so as not
to offend us. Too bad they don't do the same with their accents.
Post by h***@bellsouth.net
American business people
don't want to pay 7.00 an hour for American call center employees. It's
really pathetic.
Well, what do you expect.... when you got a president who rewards
corporations for outsourcing American jobs.
OK, I've heard this a number of times. Everybody seems to know except me --
just what exactly IS this reward?
--
Cheers,
Bev
It only takes 2 men to tile a bathroom
if you slice them thinly enough.
Tush Smells Bush Kills!!!!!!!!!!!
2005-06-07 18:15:18 UTC
Permalink
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=35712
Ted B.
2005-06-03 17:14:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by diddy
computer replacement. And they wonder why Americans are frustrated with
outsourced computer tech support! Sheesh.
If they are unintelligable, unintelligent and incompetent, they deserve to
be FIRED, and not just quit.
Sorry, no sympathis from this perspective.
Well to argue from a third side for a moment . . . the problem isn't a lack
of intelligence, and it's not so much a accent issue either (though that
doesn't help). The real problem is (the pay isn't enough to cover the
training and experience required to handle the job). It is usually almost
impossible for anyone to find the RIGHT answer to a customer's question by
reading from a manual or a flow-chart. If the customer is desperate enough
to call tech-support, then by that time, it's likely that the problem they
want help with isn't covered by the flow-chart. You need people answering
the phones who know (whatever) they are supposed to be supporting inside
out. Further, you need people answering the phones who can think through a
problem and figure out the correct response WITHOUT reading a manual.
Basically, if you have to resort to a manual or flow-chart, you are sunk,
and it won't be possible for you to help a customer with whatever issue they
called about.

So where do you find these people who have the answers without having to
research them? They are readily available and looking for work. But
there's a catch . . . the RIGHT people to be answering the phones would
never take jobs at the salary level offered to people who answer the phones.
In other words, this problem will never be solved. It has nothing to do
with India. If all telephone support positions were offered in the United
States only, there would still be the problem with (the pay isn't enough to
cover the training and experience required to handle the job) -Dave
diddy
2005-06-03 17:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted B.
Post by diddy
computer replacement. And they wonder why Americans are frustrated
with outsourced computer tech support! Sheesh.
If they are unintelligable, unintelligent and incompetent, they
deserve to be FIRED, and not just quit.
Sorry, no sympathis from this perspective.
Well to argue from a third side for a moment . . . the problem isn't a
lack of intelligence, and it's not so much a accent issue either
(though that doesn't help). The real problem is (the pay isn't enough
to cover the training and experience required to handle the job). It
is usually almost impossible for anyone to find the RIGHT answer to a
customer's question by reading from a manual or a flow-chart. If the
customer is desperate enough to call tech-support, then by that time,
it's likely that the problem they want help with isn't covered by the
flow-chart. You need people answering the phones who know (whatever)
they are supposed to be supporting inside out. Further, you need
people answering the phones who can think through a problem and figure
out the correct response WITHOUT reading a manual. Basically, if you
have to resort to a manual or flow-chart, you are sunk, and it won't
be possible for you to help a customer with whatever issue they called
about.
So where do you find these people who have the answers without having
to research them? They are readily available and looking for work.
But there's a catch . . . the RIGHT people to be answering the phones
would never take jobs at the salary level offered to people who answer
the phones. In other words, this problem will never be solved. It has
nothing to do with India. If all telephone support positions were
offered in the United States only, there would still be the problem
with (the pay isn't enough to cover the training and experience
required to handle the job) -Dave
I think you are probably right. My husband is a parts services manager. He
spent years in the repair field before health issues put him behind the
counter. When someone comes in to buy a part, my husband usually asks
about the part they are replacing and often sells them the RIGHT part. Or
has them do some additional diagnostics before spending money on non-
returnable parts that won't solve the issue, or has them check out parts
that are probably bad that caused that failed part to go bad in the first
place.
He sells parts, but the knowlege he imparts is far greater value than the
parts the customer left with (or didn't leave with)

If a person comes in and asks for a part.. most parts people sell a part,
and often aren;t even aware that they are selling that customer the WRONG
part. They've done their job.
But with years of knowlege, my husband instinctively knows when someone is
about to err, and asks questions, doing both the customer and the business
a favor.
Ted B.
2005-06-03 17:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by diddy
I think you are probably right. My husband is a parts services manager.
He
spent years in the repair field before health issues put him behind the
counter. When someone comes in to buy a part, my husband usually asks
about the part they are replacing and often sells them the RIGHT part. Or
has them do some additional diagnostics before spending money on non-
returnable parts that won't solve the issue, or has them check out parts
that are probably bad that caused that failed part to go bad in the first
place.
He sells parts, but the knowlege he imparts is far greater value than the
parts the customer left with (or didn't leave with)
If a person comes in and asks for a part.. most parts people sell a part,
and often aren;t even aware that they are selling that customer the WRONG
part. They've done their job.
But with years of knowlege, my husband instinctively knows when someone is
about to err, and asks questions, doing both the customer and the business
a favor.
See . . . that's the guy!!! I'm a professional computer nerd myself . . .
the kind who can diagnose problems over the phone, even if I've never seen
the system in question and the person I'm talking to is totally clueless.
(Because I know the right questions to ask to get the information I need,
even out of the clueless). You want me to answer phones, though? You
simply can't afford me. :) Because I've been in the IT industry for quite
a while, I know how much the tech support folks are making. Me, if I was
ever desperate enough to take a tech support job, I'd rather flip burgers
for more money and less stress. :) (tech support, especially level 1
and 2, is paid pitiful wages . . . and that is the root of the
roblem) -Dave
h***@hotmail.com
2005-06-03 19:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted B.
Post by diddy
I think you are probably right. My husband is a parts services manager.
He
spent years in the repair field before health issues put him behind the
counter. When someone comes in to buy a part, my husband usually asks
about the part they are replacing and often sells them the RIGHT part. Or
has them do some additional diagnostics before spending money on non-
returnable parts that won't solve the issue, or has them check out parts
that are probably bad that caused that failed part to go bad in the first
place.
He sells parts, but the knowlege he imparts is far greater value than the
parts the customer left with (or didn't leave with)
If a person comes in and asks for a part.. most parts people sell a part,
and often aren;t even aware that they are selling that customer the WRONG
part. They've done their job.
But with years of knowlege, my husband instinctively knows when someone is
about to err, and asks questions, doing both the customer and the business
a favor.
See . . . that's the guy!!! I'm a professional computer nerd myself . . .
the kind who can diagnose problems over the phone, even if I've never seen
the system in question and the person I'm talking to is totally clueless.
(Because I know the right questions to ask to get the information I need,
even out of the clueless). You want me to answer phones, though? You
simply can't afford me. :) Because I've been in the IT industry for quite
a while, I know how much the tech support folks are making. Me, if I was
ever desperate enough to take a tech support job, I'd rather flip burgers
for more money and less stress. :) (tech support, especially level 1
and 2, is paid pitiful wages . . . and that is the root of the
roblem) -Dave
Well... not to disagree too much with what has been said, the real
root of the problem has a lot to do with the operating system
idiosyncracies, the way that programs are written, and the increasing
forcing of consumers into using "help wizards" that are anything but
helpful.

I get more support calls asking for help on Windows networking
problems than I do on my 16 bit program. It doesn't help that some of
the info needed to get users out of their networking problems is now
hidden to all except those who know to right click on a particular
icon to bring up "properties" and drill down, or look in the "tools"
menu for stuff that should logically be elsewhere.

As for the offshore techs getting their feelings hurt, T. S.. When
they can't help a customer having a computer problem, and the customer
gets angry at the incompetence, the monkey is squarely on the tech's
shoulder. I've had to help customers so inexperienced that they had
never held a mouse before, and I've never had a customer blow off at
me in over ten years. (I'm a little amazed at that, myself.)

To be truthful through, there have been times when I've asked a
customer to find someone around who is computer literate to talk with
me on the phone support, so that "the process can be speeded up and
less of the customer's valuable time wasted."
diddy
2005-06-03 19:23:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Ted B.
Post by diddy
I think you are probably right. My husband is a parts services
manager. He
spent years in the repair field before health issues put him behind
the counter. When someone comes in to buy a part, my husband
usually asks about the part they are replacing and often sells them
the RIGHT part. Or has them do some additional diagnostics before
spending money on non- returnable parts that won't solve the issue,
or has them check out parts that are probably bad that caused that
failed part to go bad in the first place.
He sells parts, but the knowlege he imparts is far greater value
than the parts the customer left with (or didn't leave with)
If a person comes in and asks for a part.. most parts people sell a
part, and often aren;t even aware that they are selling that
customer the WRONG part. They've done their job.
But with years of knowlege, my husband instinctively knows when someone is
about to err, and asks questions, doing both the customer and the
business a favor.
See . . . that's the guy!!! I'm a professional computer nerd myself .
. . the kind who can diagnose problems over the phone, even if I've
never seen the system in question and the person I'm talking to is
totally clueless. (Because I know the right questions to ask to get
the information I need, even out of the clueless). You want me to
answer phones, though? You simply can't afford me. :) Because I've
been in the IT industry for quite a while, I know how much the tech
support folks are making. Me, if I was ever desperate enough to take
a tech support job, I'd rather flip burgers for more money and less
stress. :) (tech support, especially level 1 and 2, is paid
pitiful wages . . . and that is the root of the roblem) -Dave
Well... not to disagree too much with what has been said, the real
root of the problem has a lot to do with the operating system
idiosyncracies, the way that programs are written, and the increasing
forcing of consumers into using "help wizards" that are anything but
helpful.
I get more support calls asking for help on Windows networking
problems than I do on my 16 bit program. It doesn't help that some of
the info needed to get users out of their networking problems is now
hidden to all except those who know to right click on a particular
icon to bring up "properties" and drill down, or look in the "tools"
menu for stuff that should logically be elsewhere.
As for the offshore techs getting their feelings hurt, T. S.. When
they can't help a customer having a computer problem, and the customer
gets angry at the incompetence, the monkey is squarely on the tech's
shoulder. I've had to help customers so inexperienced that they had
never held a mouse before, and I've never had a customer blow off at
me in over ten years. (I'm a little amazed at that, myself.)
That's pretty amazing.
Post by h***@hotmail.com
To be truthful through, there have been times when I've asked a
customer to find someone around who is computer literate to talk with
me on the phone support, so that "the process can be speeded up and
less of the customer's valuable time wasted."
Fair enough. But It's not hard to know more about a computer than the
outsourced tech support. I TOLD them my fan was not working, and they
wanted diagnostics. Guess what.. fan was NOT working!
So they decided to ship it back. They not only shipped it back they fixed
it and SOLD it.

And so the wheel goes round and round. I would tell them different things
about the computer or be one step ahead of them, and they would get all
abashed and confused. If you mess up their "flow charts" in any way, YOU
are the one being uncooperative. they do not want to be confused with
logic, and if you knew where they were going, rather than translate their
badly broken english, went ahead and completed where they were going to,
they got upset.
Or if you had done something before (multiple times previously before
calling them) and told them, I understand where you are going, and have
done that, they get upset. Do it again, wasting all of our time.
And most of the time i really couldn't understand them AT ALL.
And yes, I asked for people who spoke English (realizing that English IS_"
their native tongue). And being passed from one person to another who spoke
equally bad english. I'm probably one of those Americans that made them cry
and quit. I'll own up to it. But THEY are the reason i will NEVER buy
another Dell computer, or any other computer that uses outsourced tech
support. If I'm going to deal with frustration, i don't see the need to
deal with interpretive issues on top of it)
But they will equally have to own up to the fact that they caused me to
shed just as many tears of frustration.

And then there are those TV infomercials....
I called for something I really had been looking for, and wanted to buy,
and was delighted to find it on TV. I called the 1-800 number, and guess
where I ended up? New Delhi!
As soon as i heard the accent, I changed my mind about buying. Do they
REALLY think I'm going to give my credit card number to someone in a third
world country?
No thanks. I hung up.

I did watch The Amazing Race and saw compassionate, poignant, caring ,
helping people, and this did change my opinion somewhat. I know that
rude, insulting, indifference, and ignorance is simply a job requirement
for outsourced tech support, and not ALL India people are like that. They
are hiring the wrong people!
Dennis P. Harris
2005-06-04 05:59:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:23:40 -0500 in misc.consumers, diddy
Post by diddy
Fair enough. But It's not hard to know more about a computer than the
outsourced tech support. I TOLD them my fan was not working, and they
wanted diagnostics. Guess what.. fan was NOT working!
in my case, the bearing was failing, and i wanted a new fan
*before* it seized. i had to argue for 5 minutes with a
"supervisor" until i told her that i would be calling the
executive suite in round rock texas the next morning to order a
new fan if she didn't dispatch a tech with one, as our optiplex
small business warranty required.

i wrote to michael dell anyway, and the next week they pulled
optiplex support back to the US (though i'm sure that the
corporate support folks who whined about the lousy indian
read-the-script support had more to do with it than me).
Terry Lomax
2005-06-04 16:13:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by diddy
I did watch The Amazing Race and saw compassionate, poignant, caring ,
helping people, and this did change my opinion somewhat. I know that
rude, insulting, indifference, and ignorance is simply a job requirement
for outsourced tech support, and not ALL India people are like that. They
are hiring the wrong people!
They certainly are! Most tech jobs given to people in India are given
to rich upper caste Hindu Brahmins who don't need the money. Upper
caste Hindus are extremely rude and malicious. Almost everyone from
India who works in the USA in tech jobs is an upper caste Hindu.

If the calls in India were fielded by lower castes, or better yet,
non-Hindus, who need the money, the people would be more competent and
more polite.

In some articles about outsourced job, interviewed Hindustani brag
about being rude to American customers. Their attitude is "America is
our servants".

There have been many cases of identity theft by people in India who use
and sell confidential information on American customers: SSN, account
numbers, passwords, etc.

The best solution for call centers for American companies is to hire
people who've spent all their lives in the part of the central USA
where people speak PERFECT American English without any accent. This
includes most of Missouri, east central Kansas, and most of the
southern half of Illinois.
PaPaPeng
2005-06-04 16:42:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry Lomax
They certainly are! Most tech jobs given to people in India are given
to rich upper caste Hindu Brahmins who don't need the money. Upper
caste Hindus are extremely rude and malicious. Almost everyone from
India who works in the USA in tech jobs is an upper caste Hindu.
If the calls in India were fielded by lower castes, or better yet,
non-Hindus, who need the money, the people would be more competent and
more polite.
I don't have any experience with offshore Indian tech support so I
can't comment on their competency or social skills. But man, you got
their caste system attitudes nailed down pretty well. I grew up in a
mixed race society where I socialized with Indians from the pariah
class to the highest Brahmins. If you think Brahims are snotty just
wait till you see what they do to their own kind who were not born
Brahmins. There is a 90s National Geographic issue on India that also
described some of the indignities the lower castes have to put up
with.
Bill
2005-06-06 01:24:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry Lomax
They certainly are! Most tech jobs given to people in India are given
to rich upper caste Hindu Brahmins who don't need the money. Upper
caste Hindus are extremely rude and malicious. Almost everyone from
India who works in the USA in tech jobs is an upper caste Hindu.
what color is their forehead dot? Enquiring minds want to know!
quietguy
2005-06-06 06:08:04 UTC
Permalink
As one of those guys who has had to call customer support (for the ISP and it
was their system fault tho) and was only given a monkey to talk to, I suggest
that if those monkeys can't stand the heat they need to get out of the kitchen.

When I ring, and that means I have hold the line for maybe half an hour or more,
I expect the person I get connected with to be able to solve my problem. In my
view if they can't then they shouldn't be in the job.

Taking on a job that you don't have the skills to perform is stupid at best, and
dishonest at worst. And if you are too f'in lazy to learn to speak and
understand english then you difinately shouldn't be taking home a salary.

David - who has no time for lazy and dishonest workers.

***@hotmail.com wrote:

As for the offshore techs getting their feelings hurt, T. S.. When
Post by h***@hotmail.com
they can't help a customer having a computer problem, and the customer
gets angry at the incompetence, the monkey is squarely on the tech's
shoulder.
Don Klipstein
2005-06-06 06:19:26 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by quietguy
As one of those guys who has had to call customer support (for the ISP and it
was their system fault tho) and was only given a monkey to talk to, I suggest
that if those monkeys can't stand the heat they need to get out of the kitchen.
When I ring, and that means I have hold the line for maybe half an hour or more,
I expect the person I get connected with to be able to solve my problem. In my
view if they can't then they shouldn't be in the job.
Taking on a job that you don't have the skills to perform is stupid at best, and
dishonest at worst. And if you are too f'in lazy to learn to speak and
understand english then you difinately shouldn't be taking home a salary.
David - who has no time for lazy and dishonest workers.
We live in a world where unemployment rates of 3-5% are considered
necessary to prevent inflation resulting from worker wage demands, and
people looking for jobs have bills to pay.

Meanwhile, what about employers that are willing to hire the lazy and
the dishonest and the unqualified in an attempt to save some bucks?
Surely I don't believe that the unemployed people trying to find work are
all lazy/dishonest/unqualified!

- Don Klipstein (***@misty.com)
Billzz
2005-06-07 20:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Klipstein
In article
Post by quietguy
As one of those guys who has had to call customer support (for the ISP and it
was their system fault tho) and was only given a monkey to talk to, I suggest
that if those monkeys can't stand the heat they need to get out of the kitchen.
When I ring, and that means I have hold the line for maybe half an hour or more,
I expect the person I get connected with to be able to solve my problem.
In my
view if they can't then they shouldn't be in the job.
Taking on a job that you don't have the skills to perform is stupid at best, and
dishonest at worst. And if you are too f'in lazy to learn to speak and
understand english then you difinately shouldn't be taking home a salary.
David - who has no time for lazy and dishonest workers.
We live in a world where unemployment rates of 3-5% are considered
necessary to prevent inflation resulting from worker wage demands, and
people looking for jobs have bills to pay.
Not exactly. The "full employment" target was set at 4% unemployment
because that is the number of people who are *transitioning* from one job or
career to another, moving, going from college, or military, to seek work
etc.
Post by Don Klipstein
Meanwhile, what about employers that are willing to hire the lazy and
the dishonest and the unqualified in an attempt to save some bucks?
Surely I don't believe that the unemployed people trying to find work are
all lazy/dishonest/unqualified!
The Real Bev
2005-06-06 21:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by quietguy
As one of those guys who has had to call customer support (for the ISP and it
was their system fault tho) and was only given a monkey to talk to, I suggest
that if those monkeys can't stand the heat they need to get out of the kitchen.
I don't care where they are or what kind of accent they have, but I do expect
them to be fluent in understandable English and capable of passing me up the
chain if they can't solve my problem.
Post by quietguy
When I ring, and that means I have hold the line for maybe half an hour or more,
I expect the person I get connected with to be able to solve my problem. In my
view if they can't then they shouldn't be in the job.
Taking on a job that you don't have the skills to perform is stupid at best, and
dishonest at worst. And if you are too f'in lazy to learn to speak and
understand english then you difinately shouldn't be taking home a salary.
David - who has no time for lazy and dishonest workers.
Don't be silly. Hiring helpdroids with no skills is a management decision.
The person who gets paid $7/hour should be smart enough to realize that he's
not smart enough to do a proper job even though his employer knows that but
hired him anyway? How is that the worker's fault?
Post by quietguy
Post by h***@hotmail.com
As for the offshore techs getting their feelings hurt, T. S.. When
they can't help a customer having a computer problem, and the customer
gets angry at the incompetence, the monkey is squarely on the tech's
shoulder.
--
Cheers,
Bev
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
When cryptography is outlawed, only outlaws will
qwertzuio asdfghjk pyxcvbnml -- M. O'Dorney
Rod Speed
2005-06-03 19:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted B.
I think you are probably right. My husband is a parts services manager. He
spent years in the repair field before health issues put him behind the
counter. When someone comes in to buy a part, my husband usually asks
about the part they are replacing and often sells them the RIGHT part. Or
has them do some additional diagnostics before spending money on non-
returnable parts that won't solve the issue, or has them check out parts
that are probably bad that caused that failed part to go bad in the first
place.
He sells parts, but the knowlege he imparts is far greater value than the
parts the customer left with (or didn't leave with)
If a person comes in and asks for a part.. most parts people sell a part,
and often aren;t even aware that they are selling that customer the WRONG
part. They've done their job.
But with years of knowlege, my husband instinctively knows when someone is
about to err, and asks questions, doing both the customer and the business
a favor.
See . . . that's the guy!!!
Nope, not with the computer industry where its much easier to work
out what needs to be replaced with most failures, and where hardly
any with that sort of capability will do phone support for long, essentially
because the vast bulk of the problems are easy to diagnose.
Post by Ted B.
I'm a professional computer nerd myself . . . the kind who can diagnose
problems over the phone, even if I've never seen the system in question and
the person I'm talking to is totally clueless.
Yes, but few of those will do frontline phone support for long. Its
just mind numbingl boring when the vast bulk of the problems are
completely routine hardware problems with an obvious fix for them.
Post by Ted B.
(Because I know the right questions to ask to get the information I need, even
out of the clueless). You want me to answer phones, though? You simply can't
afford me. :)
And few would do that work for long even if they could afford them.
Post by Ted B.
Because I've been in the IT industry for quite a while, I know how much the
tech support folks are making. Me, if I was ever desperate enough to take a
tech support job, I'd rather flip burgers for more money and less stress. :)
I wouldnt and I am the same as you capability wise, and
realise that the vast bulk of the calls are readily resolvable
with a decent script for the frontline monkeys too.
Post by Ted B.
(tech support, especially level 1 and 2, is paid pitiful wages . . . and that
is the root of the roblem)
Nope, few would to that work for long even if the pay was decent.

THATS the real problem.
Ted B.
2005-06-06 13:14:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Ted B.
(tech support, especially level 1 and 2, is paid pitiful wages . . . and
that is the root of the roblem)
Nope, few would to that work for long even if the pay was decent.
THATS the real problem.
You could be right on that. -Dave
Howard
2005-06-03 17:51:58 UTC
Permalink
question by reading from a manual or a flow-chart. If the customer is
desperate enough to call tech-support, then by that time, it's likely
that the problem they want help with isn't covered by the flow-chart.
While most of what you said is true, this part is not only 'mostly' false
but 'completely'. Too many people calling 'tech' support (because sales is
far far too stupid to offer any kind of support, the calls were routed to
tech support although in no way was it a technical issue) to ask what side
of the helpful "how to plug in a cable" poster was 'up'. People calling to
ask if the green cable went to the red or green port, and if the red cable
should go in the blue or green port (surprisingly, the idea of it going in
the red port never crossed their mind). I have seen people try to plug a
USB cable into the phone jack of the modem. One time, while working for an
ISP, one of the managers came up with the brilliant idea of having the
techs make a list of the top ten call reasons, so we could include a list
of them with the install disks we sent out. He was amazed that I refused,
and explained that this would reduce calls. I calmly stood up, walked over
to the area where the disks, envelopes, etc were (basically, everything we
included in the welcome packet) and handed him the piece of paper included
with EVERY packet. Yep, you guessed it...a top ten list of common
questions.

When faced with this amount of stupidity, companies started putting the
low-paid stupid people at the 'front of the line'. These people didn't
know the product, could barely read, but had an advantage over the
customers, who apparently couldn't read at all. As the saying goes, in the
land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. When your customer base has
an average IQ of 79, all you need answering the phones is an IQ of 80, or
so corporate america thinks.

This worked about as well as you would imagine...with the intelligent
people calling with, as you mentioned, real problems not covered in the
manual having to jump through hoops to get transferred up to someone with a
higher cranial capacity than their cup of coffee. Then some idiot decided
even more money could be saved by getting rid of not only those with a
brain, but the idiots in the front as well, and send their jobs overseas.
The fact that this is entirely false aside, what happened is now that
average 79 IQ customer base is talking to someone on the other end of the
phone who has never seen the product, does not understand the product, and
rather than getting training on the product has gotten intense training on
how to 'not sound foreign'. Does this customer base have the wit to fill
in the knowledge void on the other end of the line? Of course not. Now,
those with real issues cannot get help, and even the idiots who can't
figure out how to turn the machine on can't either.

Though actually, come to think of it, this might not be that bad. The
intelligent ones turn elsewhere for help, the dumb ones don't know how.
The less idiots operating spam zombies because they were too dumb to know
how to use a computer, the better.

Anyway, I've far digressed. Back to the main point...the vast vast vast
majority of people calling tech support do NOT have a problem. At least,
not one that tech support can address.
--
Minister of All Things Digital & Electronic, and Holder of Past Knowledge
***@email.com. Cabal# 24601-fnord | Sleep is irrelevant.
I speak for no one but myself, and |Caffeine will be assimilated.
no one else speaks for me. O- | Decaf is futile.
Marcio Watanabe
2005-06-03 18:19:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted B.
Well to argue from a third side for a moment . . . the problem isn't a lack
of intelligence, and it's not so much a accent issue either (though that
doesn't help). The real problem is (the pay isn't enough to cover the
training and experience required to handle the job).
The real problem is the declining level of politeness in society as a
whole. There is no justification for being abusive to someone you
called for help, even if that person turns out to be not capable of
helping you. The right thing to do is to ask if someone else can help
you, like a supervisor, or in the worst case, call again and hope you
get someone better. I fail to see how verbally abusing someone would
make that person more qualified to help you.
Steve
2005-06-03 18:50:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marcio Watanabe
The real problem is the declining level of politeness in society as a
whole.
Much of which is in evidence right here in this group!
Howard
2005-06-03 18:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marcio Watanabe
get someone better. I fail to see how verbally abusing someone would
make that person more qualified to help you.
Actually, that is a general problem with tech support, not just support
sent overseas where the language barrier isn't as much a problem as the
knowledge void. Even if they DID understand your question, they don't know
the answer.

Anyway, the problem you speak of it just human nature (and, as you noted,
society going to hell without waiting for the handbasket). People calling
for support are generally aware that they, usually through their ignorance,
have caused their own problem. The chip is already on their shoulder, and
when the tech (or 'tech') starts asking questions to try to determine the
problem, and hopefully the cause, they get defensive...because they know
THEY are the cause. As you said, though, I'm not entirely certain what the
point of calling a support person an "effing idiot" is. I mean...you just
called an "effing idiot" for help, what does that make YOU?

I honestly have never met anyone who would actually tell the customer flat
out that they screwed it up and are to blame. Even when directly asked.
"I screwed it up, didn't I?" "We can get it working again, ma'am, don't
worry". So why they expect to be raked over the coals (other than the fact
that they know they SHOULD be) is beyond me.
--
Minister of All Things Digital & Electronic, and Holder of Past Knowledge
***@email.com. Cabal# 24601-fnord | Sleep is irrelevant.
I speak for no one but myself, and |Caffeine will be assimilated.
no one else speaks for me. O- | Decaf is futile.
Don Taylor From:
2005-06-03 19:23:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted B.
Post by diddy
computer replacement. And they wonder why Americans are frustrated with
outsourced computer tech support! Sheesh.
Well to argue from a third side for a moment . . . the problem isn't a lack
of intelligence, and it's not so much a accent issue either (though that
doesn't help). The real problem is (the pay isn't enough to cover the
training and experience required to handle the job).
Well to argue from a fourth side for a moment ... if the computer
hardware and, probably even more importantly, the computer SOFTWARE
was hundreds of times more reliable, dependable, understandable and
massive f&*@k-up free the support needed would drop by many orders
of magnitude. Software like that can be done, often it is even
cheaper in the long run, but we have developed the Windows mentality
where it really doesn't matter whether you ship with fifty thousand
known bugs and five or ten thousand serious bugs, just get it out
there, we will have a new version with the same number of problems
in a year or two, but we will have added a few tens of thousands of
new features and new ways for it to fail.

Again and again, people spend days trying to figure out why something
doesn't work, not a clue why it failed in the first place, not a clue
what you are supposed to do to fix it. It doesn't have to be that way.
Rod Speed
2005-06-03 19:38:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by diddy
computer replacement. And they wonder why Americans are frustrated with
outsourced computer tech support! Sheesh.
If they are unintelligable, unintelligent and incompetent, they deserve to
be FIRED, and not just quit.
Sorry, no sympathis from this perspective.
Well to argue from a third side for a moment . . . the problem isn't a lack of
intelligence, and it's not so much a accent issue either (though that doesn't
help). The real problem is (the pay isn't enough to cover the training and
experience required to handle the job).
Its got nothing to do with the pay. Phone support by first
world monkeys is just as bad, without the accent problem.
It is usually almost impossible for anyone to find the RIGHT answer to a
customer's question by reading from a manual or a flow-chart.
Thats just plain wrong with the simpler problems if the manual or
flowchart is any good. They often arent tho, with any phone support.
If the customer is desperate enough to call tech-support, then by that time,
it's likely that the problem they want help with isn't covered by the
flow-chart.
Oh bullshit.
You need people answering the phones who know (whatever) they are supposed to
be supporting inside out.
Those that do, wont be doing phone support, even with first world monkeys.
Further, you need people answering the phones who can think through a problem
and figure out the correct response WITHOUT reading a manual.
Not even feasible to get enough of those or kept them with a job like that.
Basically, if you have to resort to a manual or flow-chart, you are sunk,
Nope, not with quite basic problems like the hard drive
has died and you need to have that replaced etc.

In spades with the poster's problem of a bad fan.
and it won't be possible for you to help a customer with whatever issue they
called about.
Wrong.
So where do you find these people who have the answers without having to
research them? They are readily available and looking for work. But there's
a catch . . . the RIGHT people to be answering the phones would never take
jobs at the salary level offered to people who answer the phones.
Its distinctly arguable if the RIGHT people would do that sort of work
for long, whatever the pay. They're MUCH more likely to be doing much
better work than phone support when most of the callers are pig ignorant.
In other words, this problem will never be solved. It has nothing to do with
India. If all telephone support positions were offered in the United States
only, there would still be the problem with (the pay isn't enough to cover the
training and experience required to handle the job)
I dont believe its got anything to do with the amount they are paid, the
problem is that its an obscene 'job' and that no one with a clue would
be stupid enough to do it for longer than they need to, at any pay.

Then again, some do stay dentists for a surprisingly long time...
nina
2005-06-03 21:04:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted B.
Post by diddy
computer replacement. And they wonder why Americans are frustrated with
outsourced computer tech support! Sheesh.
If they are unintelligable, unintelligent and incompetent, they deserve to
be FIRED, and not just quit.
Sorry, no sympathis from this perspective.
Well to argue from a third side for a moment . . . the problem isn't a lack
of intelligence, and it's not so much a accent issue either (though that
doesn't help). The real problem is (the pay isn't enough to cover the
training and experience required to handle the job). It is usually almost
impossible for anyone to find the RIGHT answer to a customer's question by
reading from a manual or a flow-chart. If the customer is desperate enough
to call tech-support, then by that time, it's likely that the problem they
want help with isn't covered by the flow-chart. You need people answering
the phones who know (whatever) they are supposed to be supporting inside
out.
Right. I know a decent amount about computers. I hate going thru levels
of support when I have TRIED to explain to the intial person that I
have done EVERYTHING they are about to suggest. It bugs me that they
cant seem to deviate from the script enough to do a simple JUMP TO step
90 and wanna run 1-89 and have me say "no,not that"89 times.


ADD the language problem? Sheesh
Rod Speed
2005-06-03 21:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by nina
Post by Ted B.
Post by diddy
computer replacement. And they wonder why Americans are frustrated with
outsourced computer tech support! Sheesh.
If they are unintelligable, unintelligent and incompetent, they deserve to
be FIRED, and not just quit.
Sorry, no sympathis from this perspective.
Well to argue from a third side for a moment . . . the problem isn't a lack
of intelligence, and it's not so much a accent issue either (though that
doesn't help). The real problem is (the pay isn't enough to cover the
training and experience required to handle the job). It is usually almost
impossible for anyone to find the RIGHT answer to a customer's question by
reading from a manual or a flow-chart. If the customer is desperate enough
to call tech-support, then by that time, it's likely that the problem they
want help with isn't covered by the flow-chart. You need people answering
the phones who know (whatever) they are supposed to be supporting inside
out.
Right. I know a decent amount about computers. I hate going thru
levels of support when I have TRIED to explain to the intial person that
I have done EVERYTHING they are about to suggest. It bugs me that
they cant seem to deviate from the script enough to do a simple JUMP
TO step 90 and wanna run 1-89 and have me say "no,not that"89 times.
Sure, but that is more a deficiency with the script, not allowing the
monkey to short the script when its obvious that its time to do that.

Not easy tho, its rather difficult to allow for everything the customer
might know that makes it clear that the script should be shorted.

I had an example recently, where I knew that more than one
the ISP's DSL customers in a particular town had no service,
and some other customers of other ISPs that resold the same
DSL service were also getting no service. The phone monkey
claimed that unless we went thru the obvious tests of my system,
his tech support wouldnt listen to a fault report. I put a bomb
under the ISP after that fiasco saw them do something about
it a full 8 hours after I had initially reported the fault, and did
get a response that indicated that whoever responded to the
email did accept that their system was deficient. It remains
to be seen if that will have any effect, and it isnt that easy
to allow for in the script even if they want to do that.
Post by nina
ADD the language problem? Sheesh
p***@spamcop.net
2005-06-19 00:15:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted B.
Post by diddy
computer replacement. And they wonder why Americans are frustrated with
outsourced computer tech support! Sheesh.
If they are unintelligable, unintelligent and incompetent, they deserve to
be FIRED, and not just quit.
Sorry, no sympathis from this perspective.
Well to argue from a third side for a moment . . . the problem isn't a lack
of intelligence, and it's not so much a accent issue either (though that
doesn't help). The real problem is (the pay isn't enough to cover the
training and experience required to handle the job). It is usually almost
impossible for anyone to find the RIGHT answer to a customer's question by
reading from a manual or a flow-chart. If the customer is desperate enough
to call tech-support, then by that time, it's likely that the problem they
want help with isn't covered by the flow-chart. You need people answering
the phones who know (whatever) they are supposed to be supporting inside
out.
Here's a novel suggestion, though I doubt most companies would
implement it: While you are on hold, you get asked basic knowledge
questions baout the PC or operating system. "Push 1 if you use
ctl-alt-del to open files, push 2 if you think "make money fast"
emails are wonderful business opportunities.." sort of things...for
every right answer, you move up in the queue and after 10 right
answers you automatically get bumped to the next level of support so
you don't have to go through the basic "Is your machine on?", "What
color is your underwear now?" sort of things. Answer too many wrong
and you get transferred to Apple tech support where they are used to
working with people who think a PC is some sort of magic box with
nothing inside it but gnomes. :)

Hell, I'd be willing to take a test after purchase and get some sort
of certificate in a company's product if it got me past the
script-droids when I need help.

Jim P.
Steve
2005-06-19 00:28:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@spamcop.net
Here's a novel suggestion, though I doubt most companies would
implement it: While you are on hold, you get asked basic knowledge
questions baout the PC or operating system. "Push 1 if you use
ctl-alt-del to open files, push 2 if you think "make money fast"
emails are wonderful business opportunities.
Push 9 if your version of windows is double hung.
Rod Speed
2005-06-19 01:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@spamcop.net
Post by Ted B.
Post by diddy
And they wonder why Americans are frustrated
with outsourced computer tech support! Sheesh.
If they are unintelligable, unintelligent and incompetent,
they deserve to be FIRED, and not just quit.
Sorry, no sympathis from this perspective.
Well to argue from a third side for a moment . . . the problem isn't a lack
of intelligence, and it's not so much a accent issue either (though that
doesn't help). The real problem is (the pay isn't enough to cover the
training and experience required to handle the job). It is usually almost
impossible for anyone to find the RIGHT answer to a customer's question by
reading from a manual or a flow-chart. If the customer is desperate enough
to call tech-support, then by that time, it's likely that the problem they
want
help with isn't covered by the flow-chart. You need people answering the
phones who know (whatever) they are supposed to be supporting inside out.
Here's a novel suggestion, though I doubt
Yeah, few would be stupid enough to piss off their customers like that.
Post by p***@spamcop.net
While you are on hold, you get asked basic knowledge questions
baout the PC or operating system. "Push 1 if you use ctl-alt-del
to open files, push 2 if you think "make money fast" emails are
wonderful business opportunities.." sort of things...for every right
answer, you move up in the queue and after 10 right answers
you automatically get bumped to the next level of support so
you don't have to go through the basic "Is your machine on?",
I never get asked stupid questions like that.
Post by p***@spamcop.net
"What color is your underwear now?" sort of things.
Answer too many wrong and you get transferred to
Apple tech support where they are used to working
with people who think a PC is some sort of magic
box with nothing inside it but gnomes. :)
It would be better to have a system which could put a
bullet in the most stupid user's heads. Permanent fix.
Post by p***@spamcop.net
Hell, I'd be willing to take a test after purchase and
get some sort of certificate in a company's product
if it got me past the script-droids when I need help.
Bet few of their customers would.
ameijers
2005-06-19 04:33:18 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by p***@spamcop.net
Hell, I'd be willing to take a test after purchase and get some sort
of certificate in a company's product if it got me past the
script-droids when I need help.
When we used Dell at work (before they lost the contract to Gateway), that
is exactly what we did- sent 2 of our in-house support contractors down to
Texas to Dell U., and got them certified as Dell Support Professionals, or
whatever the little piece of wallpaper said. Along with the diplomas, they
got the secret decoder rings and magic phone numbers to submit warranty
swapout calls directly to the Dell warranty shipping area- no hour on the
phones with the droids needed. Even with the ultra-low failure rate we had
with the Dells, our installed base was big enough that all this easily paid
for itself in a year.

aem sends...
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
2005-06-04 14:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted B.
Post by diddy
computer replacement. And they wonder why Americans are frustrated with
outsourced computer tech support! Sheesh.
If they are unintelligable, unintelligent and incompetent, they deserve to
be FIRED, and not just quit.
Sorry, no sympathis from this perspective.
Well to argue from a third side for a moment . . . the problem isn't a lack
of intelligence, and it's not so much a accent issue either (though that
doesn't help). The real problem is (the pay isn't enough to cover the
training and experience required to handle the job).
no, the real problem is the fact that they even have the job.
Lurker at Large
2005-06-06 14:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted B.
Post by diddy
computer replacement. And they wonder why Americans are frustrated with
outsourced computer tech support! Sheesh.
If they are unintelligable, unintelligent and incompetent, they deserve to
be FIRED, and not just quit.
Sorry, no sympathis from this perspective.
Well to argue from a third side for a moment . . . the problem isn't a lack
of intelligence, and it's not so much a accent issue either (though that
doesn't help). The real problem is (the pay isn't enough to cover the
training and experience required to handle the job). It is usually almost
impossible for anyone to find the RIGHT answer to a customer's question by
reading from a manual or a flow-chart. If the customer is desperate enough
to call tech-support, then by that time, it's likely that the problem they
want help with isn't covered by the flow-chart. You need people answering
the phones who know (whatever) they are supposed to be supporting inside
out. Further, you need people answering the phones who can think through a
problem and figure out the correct response WITHOUT reading a manual.
Basically, if you have to resort to a manual or flow-chart, you are sunk,
and it won't be possible for you to help a customer with whatever issue they
called about.
So where do you find these people who have the answers without having to
research them? They are readily available and looking for work. But
there's a catch . . . the RIGHT people to be answering the phones would
never take jobs at the salary level offered to people who answer the phones.
In other words, this problem will never be solved. It has nothing to do
with India. If all telephone support positions were offered in the United
States only, there would still be the problem with (the pay isn't enough to
cover the training and experience required to handle the job) -Dave
You hit the nail on the head here. Back in the early to mid 80's the
state of customer service for many companies used several "tiers". When you
called you first got a call screener who took your contact info and a brief
description of your problem. The screener then forwwarded your call to first
tier support. If after some short period of questioning the first tier person
couldn't figure out your problem, they then forwarded you on to second tier.
Etc.
Of course the screener was little more than a receptionist, first tier
had very basic knowlege and was supposed to take care of things like "is it
plugged in?". Second tier had in depth knowlege, and third tier was generally
full-blown engineers. I believe this worked well, but it was probably phased
out because all those engineers and highly-skilled second tier people were
expensive to employ.
Which led us to script monkeys. I don't blame the monkeys. I blame
corporate upper management who wear blinders. IME what they do to convince
themselves that this works is they have some "QA" people call you back after
the first contact with a "customer satisfaction survey". I've been trapped
into quite a few like this where they survey me before my problem is resolved
and encourage me to complete the survey based on my experience at the time.
Then they never call back later to find out that my problem was never resolved
and I'm a very UNhappy customer.

Sharon
Ted B.
2005-06-06 15:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lurker at Large
Then they never call back later to find out that my problem was never resolved
and I'm a very UNhappy customer.
Sharon
Don't you mean EX-customer? :) -Dave
Rod Speed
2005-06-06 19:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lurker at Large
Post by Ted B.
Post by diddy
computer replacement. And they wonder why Americans are frustrated with
outsourced computer tech support! Sheesh.
If they are unintelligable, unintelligent and incompetent, they deserve to
be FIRED, and not just quit.
Sorry, no sympathis from this perspective.
Well to argue from a third side for a moment . . . the problem isn't a lack
of intelligence, and it's not so much a accent issue either (though that
doesn't help). The real problem is (the pay isn't enough to cover the
training and experience required to handle the job). It is usually almost
impossible for anyone to find the RIGHT answer to a customer's question by
reading from a manual or a flow-chart. If the customer is desperate enough
to call tech-support, then by that time, it's likely that the problem they
want help with isn't covered by the flow-chart. You need people answering
the phones who know (whatever) they are supposed to be supporting inside
out. Further, you need people answering the phones who can think through a
problem and figure out the correct response WITHOUT reading a manual.
Basically, if you have to resort to a manual or flow-chart, you are sunk,
and it won't be possible for you to help a customer with whatever issue they
called about.
So where do you find these people who have the answers without having to
research them? They are readily available and looking for work. But
there's a catch . . . the RIGHT people to be answering the phones would
never take jobs at the salary level offered to people who answer the phones.
In other words, this problem will never be solved. It has nothing to do
with India. If all telephone support positions were offered in the United
States only, there would still be the problem with (the pay isn't enough to
cover the training and experience required to handle the job) -Dave
You hit the nail on the head here. Back in the early to mid 80's the
state of customer service for many companies used several "tiers". When you
called you first got a call screener who took your contact info and a brief
description of your problem. The screener then forwwarded your call to first
tier support. If after some short period of questioning the first tier person
couldn't figure out your problem, they then forwarded you on to second tier.
Etc.
Of course the screener was little more than a receptionist, first tier
had very basic knowlege and was supposed to take care of things like "is it
plugged in?". Second tier had in depth knowlege, and third tier was generally
full-blown engineers. I believe this worked well, but it was probably phased
out because all those engineers and highly-skilled second tier people were
expensive to employ.
It hasnt really been phased out, most obviously with ISPs.

There will always have to be competant monkeys who can
work out when part of their system has a problem and fix it.

The problem with my current ISP appears to be that someone
has required the frontline monkeys to go thru the motions with
the customer to check that the problem isnt with the customer's
PC and there isnt any mechanism to allow the customer to
point out that more than one PC in the town is seeing the
same problem, so it cant be specific to one of the PCs.

Thats really just lousy system design, the backroom monkeys
wont accept a fault report unless the frontline monkeys have
gone thru the motions with the customer's PC even when that
is completely pointless in that particular situation listed.
Post by Lurker at Large
Which led us to script monkeys.
There isnt much alternative with the frontline monkeys.
Post by Lurker at Large
I don't blame the monkeys. I blame corporate upper
management who wear blinders. IME what they do to
convince themselves that this works is they have some
"QA" people call you back after the first contact with a
"customer satisfaction survey". I've been trapped into
quite a few like this where they survey me before my
problem is resolved and encourage me to complete the
survey based on my experience at the time. Then they
never call back later to find out that my problem was
never resolved and I'm a very UNhappy customer.
Just bad design again.
George Grapman
2005-06-06 19:14:48 UTC
Permalink
Someone at corporate gave me the level two support number. I still
have to call level one to get a case number but as soon as I get it I
hang up and call level two. They are in the U.S. and understand the
possibility that the problem might be on their end.
Level one seems unable to go beyond" we do apologize for any
inconvenience this may be causing you" or "ok,let's have a look at your
settings".
--
To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell
Rod Speed
2005-06-06 21:59:11 UTC
Permalink
Someone at corporate gave me the level two support number. I still have to
call level one to get a case number but as soon as I get it I hang up and call
level two. They are in the U.S. and understand the possibility that the
problem might be on their end.
Level one seems unable to go beyond" we do apologize for any inconvenience
this may be causing you" or "ok,let's have a look at your settings".
Depends on the operation.

I did find that the level one with my electronic banking was quite
competant. The problem did appear to be at their end, the monkey
said that flushing the java stack on my system would fix it, and
while I was quite skeptical about that, it turned out to be correct
when I did it, mainly because there wasnt anything else to do.

Also had a similar situation with my DSL ISP. They were saying
that the router should be turned off for 5 mins before turning it on
again. That didnt make a lot of sense when a much shorter time
should have been perfectly adequate to reset it. They do have
a level 2 tech who does field questions in one of the tech forums
and he explained that with the router attempting to logon and
failing, the radix servers that the DSL service provider is using
can get its tiny little brain scrambled with repeated attempts at
a logon that fails and that that longer time does reset the system
properly when its got into that loop, and it turned out to work
even tho I assumed it was some rather silly level one monkey stuff.
r***@vt.edu
2005-06-03 20:25:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Indian call staff quit over abuse on the line
Abuse from British and American customers is driving increasing numbers of
Indian call centre workers from their jobs, defeated by the strain of
handling persistent rudeness.
'I've had people tell me, "Back off, Paki, and don't call me again", said
OK, I have been reading this thread about tech support calls, etc., but
did anyone else read the above quote and think they are talking about
telemarketers? Of course they are getting rude responses. They're
telemarketers! I am not crying for them in this case.

My experience with tech support calls which sounded like Indian
personnel has been quite positive. I've had good help. Also, just
because someone has an accent doesn't mean they are in some
outsourced call center in New Dehli, they could just as easily
be a foreign national in the US on a work visa.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.
Rick
2005-06-03 21:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@vt.edu
My experience with tech support calls which sounded like Indian
personnel has been quite positive. I've had good help. Also, just
because someone has an accent doesn't mean they are in some
outsourced call center in New Dehli, they could just as easily
be a foreign national in the US on a work visa.
Guess again. Healthcare benefits, retirement benefits etc
have been relegated to the "legacy costs" category, which
is why companies are outsourcing even $8/hr and $10/hr
jobs to India and Asia.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
2005-06-04 14:26:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@vt.edu
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Indian call staff quit over abuse on the line
Abuse from British and American customers is driving increasing numbers of
Indian call centre workers from their jobs, defeated by the strain of
handling persistent rudeness.
'I've had people tell me, "Back off, Paki, and don't call me again", said
OK, I have been reading this thread about tech support calls, etc., but
did anyone else read the above quote and think they are talking about
telemarketers? Of course they are getting rude responses. They're
telemarketers! I am not crying for them in this case.
My experience with tech support calls which sounded like Indian
personnel has been quite positive. I've had good help. Also, just
because someone has an accent doesn't mean they are in some
outsourced call center in New Dehli, they could just as easily
be a foreign national in the US on a work visa.
just as likely. not even close.
Terry Lomax
2005-06-06 14:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@vt.edu
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Indian call staff quit over abuse on the line
Abuse from British and American customers is driving increasing numbers of
Indian call centre workers from their jobs, defeated by the strain of
handling persistent rudeness.
'I've had people tell me, "Back off, Paki, and don't call me again", said
OK, I have been reading this thread about tech support calls, etc., but
did anyone else read the above quote and think they are talking about
telemarketers? Of course they are getting rude responses. They're
telemarketers! I am not crying for them in this case.
I read the article in a different newsgroup, and it's clear the "rude
Brits" were called called at home from the people in India, so you're
right. The article said companies have the right to cancel the
accounts of rude customers. Sounds like British law is too easy on the
companies.
nina
2005-06-03 21:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Indian call staff quit over abuse on the line
Firms provide counselling to help staff insulted by British customers
Amelia Gentleman, New Delhi
Sunday May 29, 2005
The Observer
Abuse from British and American customers is driving increasing numbers of
Indian call centre workers from their jobs, defeated by the strain of
handling persistent rudeness.
Irate customers was cited as one of the main industry stress factors in a
recent survey of call centre staff and some organisations have begun
employing psychiatrists and counsellors to help employees to cope.
'I've had people tell me, "Back off, Paki, and don't call me again", said
Eugene, 27, whose former employer, Spectrumind, provided an accounts
services for BT. 'There was a lot of racist abuse once people detected from
our accents that we weren't English. I saw girls reduced to tears by it.'
Pooja Chopra, 29, from Delhi, who spent two years fielding calls for BT
Cellnet and America Online, faced similar abuse. 'People would say, "You're
a Paki, I don't want to talk to you, pass me to someone who can speak my
language".
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1494871,00.html
I have never been rude or abusive to Indian tech support or
telemarketers. But I have spoken to a few who reallly reallly irritated
me.I also hate when we are unable to understand each other, it makes me
mad at the company when the techie and I have to keep asking one
another to repeat ourselves.
Once I almost asked for someone who spoke English clearer.
Not out of rudeness or racism or ugliness, we just couldnt communicate.
Rick
2005-06-03 21:03:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by nina
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Indian call staff quit over abuse on the line
Firms provide counselling to help staff insulted by British customers
Amelia Gentleman, New Delhi
Sunday May 29, 2005
The Observer
Abuse from British and American customers is driving increasing numbers of
Indian call centre workers from their jobs, defeated by the strain of
handling persistent rudeness.
Irate customers was cited as one of the main industry stress factors in a
recent survey of call centre staff and some organisations have begun
employing psychiatrists and counsellors to help employees to cope.
'I've had people tell me, "Back off, Paki, and don't call me again", said
Eugene, 27, whose former employer, Spectrumind, provided an accounts
services for BT. 'There was a lot of racist abuse once people detected from
our accents that we weren't English. I saw girls reduced to tears by it.'
Pooja Chopra, 29, from Delhi, who spent two years fielding calls for BT
Cellnet and America Online, faced similar abuse. 'People would say, "You're
a Paki, I don't want to talk to you, pass me to someone who can speak my
language".
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1494871,00.html
I have never been rude or abusive to Indian tech support or
telemarketers. But I have spoken to a few who reallly reallly irritated
me.I also hate when we are unable to understand each other, it makes me
mad at the company when the techie and I have to keep asking one
another to repeat ourselves.
Once I almost asked for someone who spoke English clearer.
Not out of rudeness or racism or ugliness, we just couldnt communicate.
Did you catch MadTV last week? They did a skit where
Homeland Security was outsourced to India. We were
rolling on the floor.
Rod Speed
2005-06-03 21:53:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick
Post by nina
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Indian call staff quit over abuse on the line
Firms provide counselling to help staff insulted by British customers
Amelia Gentleman, New Delhi
Sunday May 29, 2005
The Observer
Abuse from British and American customers is driving increasing numbers of
Indian call centre workers from their jobs, defeated by the strain of
handling persistent rudeness.
Irate customers was cited as one of the main industry stress factors in a
recent survey of call centre staff and some organisations have begun
employing psychiatrists and counsellors to help employees to cope.
'I've had people tell me, "Back off, Paki, and don't call me again", said
Eugene, 27, whose former employer, Spectrumind, provided an accounts
services for BT. 'There was a lot of racist abuse once people detected from
our accents that we weren't English. I saw girls reduced to tears by it.'
Pooja Chopra, 29, from Delhi, who spent two years fielding calls for BT
Cellnet and America Online, faced similar abuse. 'People would say, "You're
a Paki, I don't want to talk to you, pass me to someone who can speak my
language".
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1494871,00.html
I have never been rude or abusive to Indian tech support or
telemarketers. But I have spoken to a few who reallly reallly irritated
me.I also hate when we are unable to understand each other, it makes me
mad at the company when the techie and I have to keep asking one
another to repeat ourselves.
Once I almost asked for someone who spoke English clearer.
Not out of rudeness or racism or ugliness, we just couldnt communicate.
Did you catch MadTV last week? They did a skit where
Homeland Security was outsourced to India. We were
rolling on the floor.
http://greencommute.net/telstracustomerservice.mp3
Alan
2005-06-04 14:28:18 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 16:22:50 GMT, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Indian call staff quit over abuse on the line
Firms provide counselling to help staff insulted by British customers
Amelia Gentleman, New Delhi
Sunday May 29, 2005
The Observer
Abuse from British and American customers is driving increasing numbers of
Indian call centre workers from their jobs, defeated by the strain of
handling persistent rudeness.
Irate customers was cited as one of the main industry stress factors in a
recent survey of call centre staff and some organisations have begun
employing psychiatrists and counsellors to help employees to cope.
'I've had people tell me, "Back off, Paki, and don't call me again", said
Eugene, 27, whose former employer, Spectrumind, provided an accounts
services for BT. 'There was a lot of racist abuse once people detected from
our accents that we weren't English. I saw girls reduced to tears by it.'
Pooja Chopra, 29, from Delhi, who spent two years fielding calls for BT
Cellnet and America Online, faced similar abuse. 'People would say, "You're
a Paki, I don't want to talk to you, pass me to someone who can speak my
language".
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1494871,00.html
If they're talking about telemarketers, then the obnoxious telemarketers
are getting what they deserve.

Aside: "Paki" is a British term for a person from India/Pakistan. Those
comments didn't come from an American.

I wouldn't stoop to racial insults, but I WOULD be as nasty as I could be
outside of that!




Alan Moorman

_____________________________________

DYSLEXICS OF THE WORLD UNTIE!

_____________________________________
George Grapman
2005-06-04 15:01:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
If they're talking about telemarketers, then the obnoxious telemarketers
are getting what they deserve.
If a U.S. firm outsources telemarketers they can still be sued for
violating the DO Not Call law.
Post by Alan
Aside: "Paki" is a British term for a person from India/Pakistan. Those
comments didn't come from an American.
I wouldn't stoop to racial insults, but I WOULD be as nasty as I could be
outside of that!
Alan Moorman
_____________________________________
DYSLEXICS OF THE WORLD UNTIE!
_____________________________________
--
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George Grapman
2005-06-04 15:05:11 UTC
Permalink
As calm as I am it is hard to be patient when I call my ISP and they
refuse to even consider that the problem may be on their end. They are
usually unable to say more than "let's look at your settings" and "I do
apologize for any inconvenience this may be causing you".
I was finally able to get the number for level two support which is
in the U>S. and actually understand computers and the net.
--
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diddy
2005-06-04 15:20:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Grapman
As calm as I am it is hard to be patient when I call my ISP and they
refuse to even consider that the problem may be on their end. They are
usually unable to say more than "let's look at your settings" and "I do
apologize for any inconvenience this may be causing you".
I was finally able to get the number for level two support which is
in the U>S. and actually understand computers and the net.
I have a locally owned and operated ISP. Their tech support is courteous,
timely, knowlegable, and always spot on. I confess that I've called them
for NONE ISP related issues, simply because the software support for the
software that I was using (relating to internet connections) was such a
trail of tears.
I have four ISPS, but I will never give up my first one because of
unexcelled tech support (and patience) and Their ability to convey clearly.
George Grapman
2005-06-04 15:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by diddy
Post by George Grapman
As calm as I am it is hard to be patient when I call my ISP and they
refuse to even consider that the problem may be on their end. They are
usually unable to say more than "let's look at your settings" and "I do
apologize for any inconvenience this may be causing you".
I was finally able to get the number for level two support which is
in the U>S. and actually understand computers and the net.
I have a locally owned and operated ISP. Their tech support is courteous,
timely, knowlegable, and always spot on. I confess that I've called them
for NONE ISP related issues, simply because the software support for the
software that I was using (relating to internet connections) was such a
trail of tears.
I have four ISPS, but I will never give up my first one because of
unexcelled tech support (and patience) and Their ability to convey clearly.
On a related note a friend recently got a Dell computer and is having
continual problems with the outsourced support people. I purchased a
very similar computer from a local mom and pop place for considerably
less money.
Both times that I had problems the owner answered the phone and
walked me through the problem.
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diddy
2005-06-04 15:38:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Grapman
Post by diddy
Post by George Grapman
As calm as I am it is hard to be patient when I call my ISP and they
refuse to even consider that the problem may be on their end. They
are usually unable to say more than "let's look at your settings" and
"I do apologize for any inconvenience this may be causing you".
I was finally able to get the number for level two support which is
in the U>S. and actually understand computers and the net.
I have a locally owned and operated ISP. Their tech support is
courteous, timely, knowlegable, and always spot on. I confess that
I've called them for NONE ISP related issues, simply because the
software support for the software that I was using (relating to
internet connections) was such a trail of tears.
I have four ISPS, but I will never give up my first one because of
unexcelled tech support (and patience) and Their ability to convey clearly.
On a related note a friend recently got a Dell computer and is having
continual problems with the outsourced support people. I purchased a
very similar computer from a local mom and pop place for considerably
less money.
Both times that I had problems the owner answered the phone and
walked me through the problem.
Exactly. I think Dell has the worst reputation with Outsourced tech support
of any company.
j***@hotmail.com
2005-06-04 15:46:06 UTC
Permalink
the only way u could have got the computer cheaper from the mom and pop
is.. that

it was a refurbished one or made with generic unbranded parts or,. and
having lesser comparative specs or lesser software.
they were ( or eventuallywill go ) going out of business.


yes , on service.. they will definitely beat Dell.. but think about it
the other way..on several occassions. even if the problem is on our
side. Dell pays for the replacement. etc..
i have found ..BTW, All my calls to Dell were answered by US based tech
support..
George Grapman
2005-06-04 15:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
the only way u could have got the computer cheaper from the mom and pop
is.. that
it was a refurbished one or made with generic unbranded parts or,. and
having lesser comparative specs or lesser software.
they were ( or eventuallywill go ) going out of business.
Brand new, name brand parts. Pentium, Windows XP. They been around for
ten years.
Same reason I get Harris Ranch beef at a mom and mom butcher for less
money than the inferior Safeway beef.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
yes , on service.. they will definitely beat Dell.. but think about it
the other way..on several occassions. even if the problem is on our
side. Dell pays for the replacement. etc..
i have found ..BTW, All my calls to Dell were answered by US based tech
support..
--
To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell
diddy
2005-06-04 16:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
the only way u could have got the computer cheaper from the mom and pop
is.. that
it was a refurbished one or made with generic unbranded parts or,. and
having lesser comparative specs or lesser software.
they were ( or eventuallywill go ) going out of business.
yes , on service.. they will definitely beat Dell.. but think about it
the other way..on several occassions. even if the problem is on our
side. Dell pays for the replacement. etc..
i have found ..BTW, All my calls to Dell were answered by US based tech
support..
You must have a business Dell.
And yes, Dell replaced my fan. They also sold the whole computer as a
refurb. I wanted it baCK!!!
After over a year of haggling, with consumer line assistance from the local
tv station, Dell indeed DID replace the computer they stole from me.
Is it worth the hassle and a year down time? NO!
The computer they gave to me came with NO warranty (I had paid a three year
warranty on the one they stole from me) And a warranty purchase for their
replacement was NOT an option.
Within a year, the Motherboard failed, and I've learned since, it's not
uncommon. I was then stuck with a $3000 boat anchor with no warranty.
I did buy a replacement motherboard on E-bay for $312 (cheap) and had it
installed by a local technician for $100.
When I contacted local computer techs, they were speedy, courteous,
understanding, had the same experiences with Dell. I got my computer back
fixed. The local techs did NOT sell my computer after they fixed it for
me. No it's not on warranty, (see above where Dell refused to honor the 3
year warranty on the previous computer that they STOLE from me and then
sent a replacement with no warranty at all, and no warranty was obtainable)
after the last dell tech support fiasco, i wasn't about to ship it back to
them even if it WAS under warranty. I wanted it back on a timely basis
thank you. Actually, I just wanted it BACK! (Who woulda thunk that would
ever be an issue?)
I wanted MY computer back, with my information on it.
I had it back in a day, working, and to heck with Dells' Tech support and
warranty service. Some things are just worth paying for.
Rod Speed
2005-06-04 18:46:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
the only way u could have got the computer cheaper from the mom
and pop is.. that it was a refurbished one or made with generic
unbranded parts or,. and having lesser comparative specs or lesser
software. they were ( or eventuallywill go ) going out of business.
Bullshit. The real reason they can use the same components
for a lower price is because they dont spend much on
advertising etc and dont have endless 'training' costs for
their monkeys and the massive bureaucratic overhead etc.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
yes , on service.. they will definitely beat Dell.. but think
about it the other way..on several occassions. even if the
problem is on our side. Dell pays for the replacement. etc..
And that approach has to end up in the price you paid.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
i have found ..BTW, All my calls to Dell were
answered by US based tech support..
Alan
2005-06-05 17:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by diddy
Post by George Grapman
As calm as I am it is hard to be patient when I call my ISP and they
refuse to even consider that the problem may be on their end. They are
usually unable to say more than "let's look at your settings" and "I do
apologize for any inconvenience this may be causing you".
I was finally able to get the number for level two support which is
in the U>S. and actually understand computers and the net.
I have a locally owned and operated ISP. Their tech support is courteous,
timely, knowlegable, and always spot on. I confess that I've called them
for NONE ISP related issues, simply because the software support for the
software that I was using (relating to internet connections) was such a
trail of tears.
I have four ISPS, but I will never give up my first one because of
unexcelled tech support (and patience) and Their ability to convey clearly.
Unsolicited rave: My isp Vector Internet Services based in Minneapolis
is the best I've ever had, and has the best tech support people I've ever
found anywhere for any product!

They go out of their way to help, and they know what they're talking about!




Alan Moorman

_____________________________________

DYSLEXICS OF THE WORLD UNTIE!

_____________________________________
p***@spamcop.net
2005-06-19 00:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by diddy
Post by George Grapman
As calm as I am it is hard to be patient when I call my ISP and they
refuse to even consider that the problem may be on their end. They are
usually unable to say more than "let's look at your settings" and "I do
apologize for any inconvenience this may be causing you".
I was finally able to get the number for level two support which is
in the U>S. and actually understand computers and the net.
I have a locally owned and operated ISP. Their tech support is courteous,
timely, knowlegable, and always spot on. I confess that I've called them
for NONE ISP related issues, simply because the software support for the
software that I was using (relating to internet connections) was such a
trail of tears.
I have four ISPS, but I will never give up my first one because of
unexcelled tech support (and patience) and Their ability to convey clearly.
I use a small local ISP as well///oft as not I am talking to the owner
when I call in. He knows I am a professional and I know he sure as
hell knows his systems so things usually get fixed very smoothly and
in short order.

I could pay about 30% less if I switched to a major provider but it
wouldn't be worth the aggro and loss of responsiveness. I wouldn't
reccomend them if you need intense hand-holding though, they're not
set up that way...better to go to AOL. ;)


Jim P.
DeserTBoB
2005-06-19 02:19:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@spamcop.net
I use a small local ISP as well///oft as not I am talking to the owner
when I call in. <snip>
Same here. The bigger the ISP, the worse the service. I call with a
problem, I'm talking to the owner who is usually in the back screwing
with the router. He's also quite good and handing out useful tips on
dealing with Usenet cranks!

dB
ameijers
2005-06-19 04:22:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by DeserTBoB
Post by p***@spamcop.net
I use a small local ISP as well///oft as not I am talking to the owner
when I call in. <snip>
Same here. The bigger the ISP, the worse the service. I call with a
problem, I'm talking to the owner who is usually in the back screwing
with the router....
Another geek who can't get a date?
:^)

aem sends....
diddy
2005-06-19 09:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by DeserTBoB
Same here. The bigger the ISP, the worse the service. I call with a
problem, I'm talking to the owner who is usually in the back screwing
with the router. He's also quite good and handing out useful tips on
dealing with Usenet cranks!
dB
You need to share the tips
d***@hotmail.com
2005-06-19 13:41:38 UTC
Permalink
He doesn't have any tips- because he IS a Usenet crank, just google his
username, the guy lives a daily flame war since he logged on 4 years
ago.
Shock
2005-08-20 09:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Grapman
As calm as I am it is hard to be patient when I call my ISP and they
refuse to even consider that the problem may be on their end. They are
usually unable to say more than "let's look at your settings" and "I do
apologize for any inconvenience this may be causing you".
I was finally able to get the number for level two support which is
in the U>S. and actually understand computers and the net.
I've found Linux and Mozilla to be effective against poorly trained/informed
"tech support" people. I just tell them I'm running Linux and they tell me
they don't support Linux so I ask them to patch me through to someone else,
etc... Sometimes I have to go through this 2 or 3 times before I get to an
English-speaking individual, but hey. Ya do watcha gotta do, right?

~~Shock~~

max
2005-06-04 15:02:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Aside: "Paki" is a British term for a person from India/Pakistan. Those
comments didn't come from an American.
I wouldn't stoop to racial insults, but I WOULD be as nasty as I could be
outside of that!
c'mon. Like outsourcing or not (and i don't) they're just a buncha guys
and dolls trying to make a living. I don't think there's a moral
position that supports rudeness and insults here.

It's not their fault they were born in india, and it's not their fault
their cost of living is like 1/10th of ours --- you want to heap
approbrium, heap it on the boardroom table, not on the people in the
trenches. Ultimately, it's the cycle of capital... we may as well curse
the tides.

Look up life in India and Pakistan sometime -- it will be a little
harder to hold a grudge against them for answering the phone for $.
.max
diddy
2005-06-04 15:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by max
Post by Alan
Aside: "Paki" is a British term for a person from India/Pakistan.
Those comments didn't come from an American.
I wouldn't stoop to racial insults, but I WOULD be as nasty as I
could be outside of that!
c'mon. Like outsourcing or not (and i don't) they're just a buncha
guys and dolls trying to make a living. I don't think there's a moral
position that supports rudeness and insults here.
It's not their fault they were born in india, and it's not their fault
their cost of living is like 1/10th of ours --- you want to heap
approbrium, heap it on the boardroom table, not on the people in the
trenches. Ultimately, it's the cycle of capital... we may as well
curse the tides.
Look up life in India and Pakistan sometime -- it will be a little
harder to hold a grudge against them for answering the phone for $.
.max
What is their excuse for their rudeness first?
I can't figure where they hold the moral highground when they are the ones
that are rude and insulting.
Howard
2005-06-04 18:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by max
c'mon. Like outsourcing or not (and i don't) they're just a buncha guys
and dolls trying to make a living. I don't think there's a moral
position that supports rudeness and insults here.
Isn't it funny that people trying to defend telemarketers always puke up
this same reused line?

Hey, you know what? Crack dealers are also 'just trying to make a living'.
I don't like them either. Burglars are also 'just trying to make a
living'. Guess what? That's right...don't like 'em. And you know what?
If one enters my house uninvited despite the clear sign saying stay away,
I'm NOT going to invite them to sit down for dinner!
--
Minister of All Things Digital & Electronic, and Holder of Past Knowledge
***@email.com. Cabal# 24601-fnord | Sleep is irrelevant.
I speak for no one but myself, and |Caffeine will be assimilated.
no one else speaks for me. O- | Decaf is futile.
Dennis P. Harris
2005-06-05 08:10:57 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:02:21 -0500 in misc.consumers, max
Post by max
c'mon. Like outsourcing or not (and i don't) they're just a buncha guys
and dolls trying to make a living. I don't think there's a moral
position that supports rudeness and insults here.
Since it's a rude insult for telemarketers to call me, I am
equally as rude to them. I haven't had to deal with them since
the "do not call" list took effect, though. The few I get are
from "charities" trying to sell me something I never want, and
they all get the standard answer that I NEVER donate to anyone
tha calls me, period, and if they ever want a donation again,
they had better never call again, just send me snail mail.
Alan
2005-06-05 17:38:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis P. Harris
On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:02:21 -0500 in misc.consumers, max
Post by max
c'mon. Like outsourcing or not (and i don't) they're just a buncha guys
and dolls trying to make a living. I don't think there's a moral
position that supports rudeness and insults here.
Since it's a rude insult for telemarketers to call me, I am
equally as rude to them. I haven't had to deal with them since
the "do not call" list took effect, though. The few I get are
from "charities" trying to sell me something I never want, and
they all get the standard answer that I NEVER donate to anyone
tha calls me, period, and if they ever want a donation again,
they had better never call again, just send me snail mail.
Exactly. I'm nut rude to charities, but I won't deal with them except in
the way you do!




Alan Moorman

_____________________________________

DYSLEXICS OF THE WORLD UNTIE!

_____________________________________
p***@spamcop.net
2005-06-19 00:21:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis P. Harris
On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:02:21 -0500 in misc.consumers, max
Post by max
c'mon. Like outsourcing or not (and i don't) they're just a buncha guys
and dolls trying to make a living. I don't think there's a moral
position that supports rudeness and insults here.
Since it's a rude insult for telemarketers to call me, I am
equally as rude to them. I haven't had to deal with them since
the "do not call" list took effect, though. The few I get are
from "charities" trying to sell me something I never want, and
they all get the standard answer that I NEVER donate to anyone
tha calls me, period, and if they ever want a donation again,
they had better never call again, just send me snail mail.
My response to charity calls is "I am on the do not call list", if
they reply, "We are exempt from that." my response is "Think a moment
as to *why* I put my number on that list in the first place..I don't
want anyone calling me, that would include you by default whether you
think you can give yourself an exemption to it or not." Usually they
get the point by then.
Alan
2005-06-05 17:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by max
Post by Alan
Aside: "Paki" is a British term for a person from India/Pakistan. Those
comments didn't come from an American.
I wouldn't stoop to racial insults, but I WOULD be as nasty as I could be
outside of that!
c'mon. Like outsourcing or not (and i don't) they're just a buncha guys
and dolls trying to make a living. I don't think there's a moral
position that supports rudeness and insults here.
Maybe not here, but when a telemarketer calls me, they get a rude
reception, because they just interrupted my life to try to sell me
something.

That's rude, and I'm rude right back.

No exceptions.
Post by max
It's not their fault they were born in india, and it's not their fault
their cost of living is like 1/10th of ours --- you want to heap
approbrium, heap it on the boardroom table, not on the people in the
trenches. Ultimately, it's the cycle of capital... we may as well curse
the tides.
Look up life in India and Pakistan sometime -- it will be a little
harder to hold a grudge against them for answering the phone for $.
.max
I don't really care about that if they are telemarketers and call me.

They've been put in a bad position, by capitalist bosses, but if they get a
rude reception, perhaps they will realize that doing telemarketing is not a
good job. . .




Alan Moorman

_____________________________________

DYSLEXICS OF THE WORLD UNTIE!

_____________________________________
val189
2005-06-06 01:11:29 UTC
Permalink
What they are now spending on counselling ought to have been spent on
hiring and training employees who can handle the job. Maybe the tide
will be turning soon?
Rick
2005-06-06 01:22:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by val189
What they are now spending on counselling ought to have been spent on
hiring and training employees who can handle the job. Maybe the tide
will be turning soon?
We have just one entity to thank for outsourcing.

The United States Federal Government.
quietguy
2005-06-07 00:57:11 UTC
Permalink
Come off it - that is not abuse, it is simply commonsense for a caller to want
to speak to someone who speaks their language without an accent

David
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Pooja Chopra, 29, from Delhi, who spent two years fielding calls for BT
Cellnet and America Online, faced similar abuse. 'People would say, "You're
a Paki, I don't want to talk to you, pass me to someone who can speak my
language".
George Grapman
2005-06-07 01:42:39 UTC
Permalink
My ISP often emails me a survey after I have contacted non-support. I
will ignore it as long this question remains:

"On a scale of one to five how important is for you that the support
person understands the nature of the problem?"
--
To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell
Rich Greenberg
2005-06-07 13:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Grapman
My ISP often emails me a survey after I have contacted non-support. I
"On a scale of one to five how important is for you that the support
person understands the nature of the problem?"
Much better that you reply that the response was useless because you
could not understand the support person.
--
Rich Greenberg Marietta, GA, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507
Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val, Red & Shasta (RIP),Red, husky Owner:Chinook-L
Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L
George Grapman
2005-06-07 14:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Greenberg
Post by George Grapman
My ISP often emails me a survey after I have contacted non-support. I
"On a scale of one to five how important is for you that the support
person understands the nature of the problem?"
Much better that you reply that the response was useless because you
could not understand the support person.
The survey does not have a comment space, just boxes to check next
to the appropriate number.
--
To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell
Rich Greenberg
2005-06-07 19:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Grapman
Post by Rich Greenberg
Post by George Grapman
My ISP often emails me a survey after I have contacted non-support. I
"On a scale of one to five how important is for you that the support
person understands the nature of the problem?"
Much better that you reply that the response was useless because you
could not understand the support person.
The survey does not have a comment space, just boxes to check next
to the appropriate number.
So check all of the "completely dissatisfied" boxes.
--
Rich Greenberg Marietta, GA, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507
Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val, Red & Shasta (RIP),Red, husky Owner:Chinook-L
Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L
val189
2005-06-07 12:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Not fer nuthin', but.....whenever I call some outfit and I hear that
"This call may be monitored for quality....etc" I usually yell, "I
hope so", just in case this might activate possible observation. If
the calls really WERE monitored, I doubt that we'd get the often crappy
service.
I wonder what percentage of calls are catching that supervisory ear.

Called an outfit yesterday, recording said "All reps are busy...." and
then the same few measures of music were played endlessly - broken
record style-- another ploy to force you to hang up, I figured. Hours
later, finally reached a guy overseas, and was told "Our computers are
still down". Well, hell, change the recording. Don't companies ever
make test calls to their own number?

just ventin'
George Grapman
2005-06-07 14:17:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by val189
Not fer nuthin', but.....whenever I call some outfit and I hear that
"This call may be monitored for quality....etc" I usually yell, "I
hope so", just in case this might activate possible observation. If
the calls really WERE monitored, I doubt that we'd get the often crappy
service.
I wonder what percentage of calls are catching that supervisory ear.
Called an outfit yesterday, recording said "All reps are busy...." and
then the same few measures of music were played endlessly - broken
record style-- another ploy to force you to hang up, I figured. Hours
later, finally reached a guy overseas, and was told "Our computers are
still down". Well, hell, change the recording. Don't companies ever
make test calls to their own number?
just ventin'
There were news stories on these topics recently.
New software picks up certain key words as well as loud voices and
passes those recordings to management. One of the key words is "cancel"
as in "cancel my account".
Some companies have their own employees or hire a third party to call
customer service. For years large hotel chains have hired people to go
through the entire process from reservation to checkout. They order
every possible thing (wake up call, room service, laundry) and rate them
all.
--
To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell
a***@invalid.com
2005-06-07 21:11:15 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:17:57 GMT, George Grapman
Post by George Grapman
Some companies have their own employees or hire a third party to call
customer service. For years large hotel chains have hired people to go
through the entire process from reservation to checkout. They order
every possible thing (wake up call, room service, laundry) and rate them
all.
You are talking about the "Secret Shopper Service" - retail business
often contract with the "Secret Shopper" to have someone monitor their
employees. My son works in a supermarket and was audited by one and
got a perfect score - management gave him a bonus and an award
certificate for it! My wife works for a temp agency and got an
assignment to go to a nursing home and inspect it like she was looking
to put a relative in the place.
The Real Bev
2005-06-07 19:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by val189
Not fer nuthin', but.....whenever I call some outfit and I hear that
"This call may be monitored for quality....etc" I usually yell, "I
hope so", just in case this might activate possible observation. If
the calls really WERE monitored, I doubt that we'd get the often crappy
service.
I wonder what percentage of calls are catching that supervisory ear.
They're probably monitored to make sure the droids aren't spending too much
time on each call.
Post by val189
Called an outfit yesterday, recording said "All reps are busy...." and
then the same few measures of music were played endlessly - broken
record style-- another ploy to force you to hang up, I figured. Hours
later, finally reached a guy overseas, and was told "Our computers are
still down". Well, hell, change the recording. Don't companies ever
make test calls to their own number?
Never. They don't look at their own websites either.
--
Cheers,
Bev
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Friends help you move. *Real* friends help you move bodies."
--A. Walker
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