Discussion:
Secret trade agreement will require searches of laptops, MP3 players, and cellphones at airports
(too old to reply)
r***@excite.com
2008-05-31 23:57:40 UTC
Permalink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement

The Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA) is a proposed
plurilateral trade agreement that would impose strict enforcement of
intellectual property rights related to Internet activity and trade in
information-based goods. The agreement is being secretly negotiated by
the governments of the United States, the European Commission, Japan,
Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Canada, and Mexico.
[1][2] If adopted at the 34th G8 summit in July 2008, the treaty would
establish an international coalition against copyright infringement,
imposing a strong, top-down enforcement regime of copyright laws in
developed nations. The proposed agreement would allow border officials
to search laptops, MP3 players, and cellular phones for copyright-
infringing content. It would also impose new cooperation requirements
upon internet service providers (ISPs), including perfunctory
disclosure of customer information, and restrict the use of online
privacy tools. The proposal specifies a plan to encourage developing
nations to accept the legal regime.

The European Commission, the Office of the United States Trade
Representative, the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and
Trade, and other government agencies have acknowledged participating
in ACTA negotiations, but they have not released documents relating to
the proposed agreement. Public interest advocates in Canada filed an
access to information request but received only a document stating the
title of the agreement, with everything else blacked out.[2] On May
22, 2008, a discussion paper about the proposed agreement was uploaded
to Wikileaks, and newspaper reports about the secret negotiations
quickly followed.[3][4][2][5]

Border searches
Newspaper reports indicate that the proposed agreement would empower
security officials at airports and other international borders to
conduct random searches of laptops, MP3 players, and cellular phones
for illegally downloaded or "ripped" music and movies. Travelers with
infringing content would be subject to a fine and may have their
devices confiscated or destroyed.[2][5]

ISP cooperation
The leaked document includes a provision to force internet service
providers to provide information about suspected copyright infringers
without a warrant, making it easier for the record industry to sue
music file sharers and for officials to shut down non-commercial
BitTorrent websites such as The Pirate Bay.[6]

Enforcement
ACTA would create its own governing body outside existing
international institutions such as the World Trade Organization (WTO),
the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) or the United
Nations.[2][7]
richard
2008-06-01 02:56:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@excite.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
More wikipedia bullshit.

The United States copyright laws already give consumers certain rights
to enjoy music as they see fit for their own personal use. If I go to
a store, buy a CD and then copy the contents to my computer, that is
100% legal. I'll bet that it's even legal in Canada.

Then there is another problem with this farce. Jurisdiction.
In the USA, domains are controlled by ICANN. If you own a domain name
registered in the USA, then the USA laws apply to that domain name
regardless of where you live. Read the laws.

Canada does NOT have the legal right to shut down any dot com website
for alleged copyright infringement. Think about it. How is a Canadian
Court going to impose Canadian laws on a USA citizen living in the
USA?

This trade agreement sounds like somebody's scare tactic to curb the
illegal copying of files. So what are we supposed to do then when
crossing borders? Carry proper documentation that we have the legal
right to the music and other property? Bullshit.
Larry
2008-06-01 03:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
More wikipedia bullshit.
The United States copyright laws already give consumers certain rights
to enjoy music as they see fit for their own personal use.
Copyright laws do not in any way protect the end user, Richard. They
protect the owner of the copyright.
Post by richard
If I go to
a store, buy a CD and then copy the contents to my computer, that is
100% legal. I'll bet that it's even legal in Canada.
Then there is another problem with this farce. Jurisdiction.
In the USA, domains are controlled by ICANN. If you own a domain name
registered in the USA, then the USA laws apply to that domain name
regardless of where you live. Read the laws.
You obviously haven't.
Post by richard
Canada does NOT have the legal right to shut down any dot com website
for alleged copyright infringement. Think about it. How is a Canadian
Court going to impose Canadian laws on a USA citizen living in the
USA?
Have you thought about it? Have you researched it?

Here's a free hint on where to start: look up the history of France and
Yahoo.
Post by richard
This trade agreement sounds like somebody's scare tactic to curb the
illegal copying of files. So what are we supposed to do then when
crossing borders? Carry proper documentation that we have the legal
right to the music and other property? Bullshit.
How eloquent. And wrong.
richard
2008-06-01 03:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
More wikipedia bullshit.
The United States copyright laws already give consumers certain rights
to enjoy music as they see fit for their own personal use.
Copyright laws do not in any way protect the end user, Richard. They
protect the owner of the copyright.
Larry, you are not an expert in the field.
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I can legally copy a protected song into any device I own and listen
at my convenience. What I can not do legally, is make copies and sell
that item. That's what the copyright law is all about.
Post by Larry
Post by richard
If I go to
a store, buy a CD and then copy the contents to my computer, that is
100% legal. I'll bet that it's even legal in Canada.
Then there is another problem with this farce. Jurisdiction.
In the USA, domains are controlled by ICANN. If you own a domain name
registered in the USA, then the USA laws apply to that domain name
regardless of where you live. Read the laws.
You obviously haven't.
I have.
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Canada does NOT have the legal right to shut down any dot com website
for alleged copyright infringement. Think about it. How is a Canadian
Court going to impose Canadian laws on a USA citizen living in the
USA?
Have you thought about it? Have you researched it?
As a NYC ADA, Larry, can you legally prosecute a citizen of Canada who
has never set foot in your city? Of course not. This is why we have
borders. Canadian laws have no meaning in the USA. Period.
Post by Larry
Here's a free hint on where to start: look up the history of France and
Yahoo.
In that case against yahoo, in France, the case only effected that
portion of yahoo that resides in France. Are you aware that yahoo has
offices in France? Probably not.
Post by Larry
Post by richard
This trade agreement sounds like somebody's scare tactic to curb the
illegal copying of files. So what are we supposed to do then when
crossing borders? Carry proper documentation that we have the legal
right to the music and other property? Bullshit.
How eloquent. And wrong.
Do you know what started all this crap?
The director of RIAA, a woman with no clues about copyrighty laws,
said to the creator of NAPSTER, "Aren't you aware that what you are
doing is illegal?"
No it's not. Never has been. The program he wrote never violated the
laws. As I can legally share with you any item I own. Again, what I
can not do with it is, make copies and sell it.

Do you own law books? Have you ever given one of them to a friend? Now
why is that legal to do and not with music?
Have you ever purchasesd a CD and given it to a friend as a present?
Legal? Yes it is.
Larry
2008-06-01 04:03:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
More wikipedia bullshit.
The United States copyright laws already give consumers certain rights
to enjoy music as they see fit for their own personal use.
Copyright laws do not in any way protect the end user, Richard. They
protect the owner of the copyright.
Larry, you are not an expert in the field.
I never claimed to be. I do, however, know much more about the law than
you do.
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've repeatedly
demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes. Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law? Provide
Post by richard
I can legally copy a protected song into any device I own and listen
at my convenience. What I can not do legally, is make copies and sell
that item. That's what the copyright law is all about.
That, among other things.
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
If I go to
a store, buy a CD and then copy the contents to my computer, that is
100% legal. I'll bet that it's even legal in Canada.
Then there is another problem with this farce. Jurisdiction.
In the USA, domains are controlled by ICANN. If you own a domain name
registered in the USA, then the USA laws apply to that domain name
regardless of where you live. Read the laws.
You obviously haven't.
I have.
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Canada does NOT have the legal right to shut down any dot com website
for alleged copyright infringement. Think about it. How is a Canadian
Court going to impose Canadian laws on a USA citizen living in the
USA?
Have you thought about it? Have you researched it?
As a NYC ADA, Larry, can you legally prosecute a citizen of Canada who
has never set foot in your city? Of course not.
I most certainly can. Extradition would be tough, but it could be done.

Want some examples of how I can prosecute someone who committed a crime
in NY but never set foot here?

1) Someone stands on the shore of the Hudson River in NJ and fires a
shot into NY, killing someone. NY has jurisdiction to charge the person
with murder.

2) Someone hacks into a computer that is in NY, or commits a crime where
the victim is in New York (such as identity theft) even if they never
come to NY themselves.

Want more examples, fool?
Post by richard
This is why we have
borders. Canadian laws have no meaning in the USA. Period.
Right, but if you do something in the US that has an effect in Canada,
their laws will apply.
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Here's a free hint on where to start: look up the history of France and
Yahoo.
In that case against yahoo, in France, the case only effected that
portion of yahoo that resides in France.
Effected? Or affected?
Post by richard
Are you aware that yahoo has
offices in France? Probably not.
Are you aware of whether or not this is relevant? Definitely not.
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
This trade agreement sounds like somebody's scare tactic to curb the
illegal copying of files. So what are we supposed to do then when
crossing borders? Carry proper documentation that we have the legal
right to the music and other property? Bullshit.
How eloquent. And wrong.
Do you know what started all this crap?
The director of RIAA, a woman with no clues about copyrighty laws,
said to the creator of NAPSTER, "Aren't you aware that what you are
doing is illegal?"
What does the fact that she's a woman have to do with this, you
misogynist?
Post by richard
No it's not. Never has been. The program he wrote never violated the
laws. As I can legally share with you any item I own. Again, what I
can not do with it is, make copies and sell it.
Among other things. Such as give away millions of copies in exchange
for copies of other people's music, which is the equivalent to selling
it, since you're getting consideration in exchange for it, while keeping
a copy for yourself.
Post by richard
Do you own law books? Have you ever given one of them to a friend?
Yes, and yes.
Post by richard
Now
why is that legal to do and not with music?
Because I didn't make a photocopy of the book and keep it myself, or
keep the original and give the friend the copy. That is illegal,
whether it is music or a book.
Post by richard
Have you ever purchasesd a CD and given it to a friend as a present?
Legal? Yes it is.
Of course, but not if I copy it first, moron.
Benj
2008-06-01 04:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
As a NYC ADA, Larry, can you legally prosecute a citizen of Canada who
has never set foot in your city? Of course not.
I most certainly can.  Extradition would be tough, but it could be done.
Always? Moron.
Want some examples of how I can prosecute someone who committed a crime
in NY but never set foot here?
1) Someone stands on the shore of the Hudson River in NJ and fires a
shot into NY, killing someone.  NY has jurisdiction to charge the person
with murder.
Apples-oranges. Both NY and NJ are in the SAME country! Moron.
Say a person stands in Canada and fires a bullet into the U.S. killing
someone. They are charged with murder and Canada is asked for
extradition. Too bad. The U.S. has the death penalty and Canada won't
extradite where a person would face the death penalty. So much for
your bold assertions.
2) Someone hacks into a computer that is in NY, or commits a crime where
the victim is in New York (such as identity theft) even if they never
come to NY themselves.
From China? Oh sure. That'll work. What about all those billions of
Asian illegal copies of stuff? Where exactly is U.S. law? I'll tell
you, they just decided the problem was too big to handle and just
isolated the region with it's own separate copyright rules that wink
at illegal copies and concentrated on the rest of the world instead.
Want more examples, fool?
So who is the "fool" here? Just keep suing those college kids for
millions in the hope of shaking a few more quarters out of their
pockets. Hopefully kids will wise up and reject all you greedy guts
and your rules designed to force everyone to pay and you'll all go out
of business. Until then you can just keep billing those chargeable
hours to the trade associations!
Deadrat
2008-06-01 05:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benj
Post by richard
As a NYC ADA, Larry, can you legally prosecute a citizen of Canada
who has never set foot in your city? Of course not.
I most certainly can.  Extradition would be tough, but it could be done.
Always? Moron.
He said he can. He didn't say always.
Post by Benj
Want some examples of how I can prosecute someone who committed a
crime in NY but never set foot here?
1) Someone stands on the shore of the Hudson River in NJ and fires a
shot into NY, killing someone.  NY has jurisdiction to charge the person
with murder.
Apples-oranges. Both NY and NJ are in the SAME country! Moron.
Say a person stands in Canada and fires a bullet into the U.S. killing
someone. They are charged with murder and Canada is asked for
extradition. Too bad. The U.S. has the death penalty and Canada won't
extradite where a person would face the death penalty. So much for
your bold assertions.
Speaking of bold assertions, who said it had to be murder?
Post by Benj
2) Someone hacks into a computer that is in NY, or commits a crime
where the victim is in New York (such as identity theft) even if they
never come to NY themselves.
From China? Oh sure. That'll work. What about all those billions of
Asian illegal copies of stuff? Where exactly is U.S. law? I'll tell
you, they just decided the problem was too big to handle and just
isolated the region with it's own separate copyright rules that wink
at illegal copies and concentrated on the rest of the world instead.
Want more examples, fool?
So who is the "fool" here? Just keep suing those college kids for
millions in the hope of shaking a few more quarters out of their
pockets. Hopefully kids will wise up and reject all you greedy guts
and your rules designed to force everyone to pay and you'll all go out
of business. Until then you can just keep billing those chargeable
hours to the trade associations!
It's "charging those billable hours." And Larry is an ADA. He doesn't
bill by the hour.
Larry
2008-06-01 16:51:30 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Benj
Post by richard
As a NYC ADA, Larry, can you legally prosecute a citizen of Canada who
has never set foot in your city? Of course not.
I most certainly can.  Extradition would be tough, but it could be done.
Always? Moron.
I never said always.
Post by Benj
Want some examples of how I can prosecute someone who committed a crime
in NY but never set foot here?
1) Someone stands on the shore of the Hudson River in NJ and fires a
shot into NY, killing someone.  NY has jurisdiction to charge the person
with murder.
Apples-oranges. Both NY and NJ are in the SAME country! Moron.
Say a person stands in Canada and fires a bullet into the U.S. killing
someone. They are charged with murder and Canada is asked for
extradition. Too bad. The U.S. has the death penalty and Canada won't
extradite where a person would face the death penalty. So much for
your bold assertions.
States routinely achieve extraditions in these circumstances by agreeing
not to ask for the death penalty. Problem solved. And this isn't an
issue in cases where the death penalty isn't applicable.
Post by Benj
2) Someone hacks into a computer that is in NY, or commits a crime where
the victim is in New York (such as identity theft) even if they never
come to NY themselves.
From China? Oh sure. That'll work. What about all those billions of
Asian illegal copies of stuff? Where exactly is U.S. law? I'll tell
you, they just decided the problem was too big to handle and just
isolated the region with it's own separate copyright rules that wink
at illegal copies and concentrated on the rest of the world instead.
Want more examples, fool?
So who is the "fool" here? Just keep suing those college kids for
millions in the hope of shaking a few more quarters out of their
pockets.
The RIAA and other private organizations sue people for money. As a
prosecutor, I enforce criminal laws.
Post by Benj
Hopefully kids will wise up and reject all you greedy guts
and your rules designed to force everyone to pay and you'll all go out
of business. Until then you can just keep billing those chargeable
hours to the trade associations!
You don't know the difference between criminal law and civil laws, do
you?
Kurt Ullman
2008-06-01 17:45:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
States routinely achieve extraditions in these circumstances by agreeing
not to ask for the death penalty. Problem solved.
After, of course, an appropriate amount of blustering for the cameras
about how these other countries shouldn't pry into our business lest
anyone suggest the prosecutor is Soft On Crime.
Scout
2008-06-01 13:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
More wikipedia bullshit.
The United States copyright laws already give consumers certain rights
to enjoy music as they see fit for their own personal use.
Copyright laws do not in any way protect the end user, Richard. They
protect the owner of the copyright.
Larry, you are not an expert in the field.
I never claimed to be. I do, however, know much more about the law than
you do.
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've repeatedly
demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes. Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law? Provide
17USC107

Fair use and all that it means.
Mxsmanic
2008-06-01 19:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've repeatedly
demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes. Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law? Provide
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Scout
2008-06-01 21:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've repeatedly
demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes. Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law? Provide
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
Deadrat
2008-06-01 22:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my
car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Rod Speed
2008-06-02 00:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my
car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Deadrat
2008-06-02 01:30:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright. If you
play the original on your computer and the copy in your car, you have
deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
Rod Speed
2008-06-02 02:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read
statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given to music
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.

And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
Deadrat
2008-06-02 04:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read
statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given to music
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not. If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely
not. If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making a copy only as
backup protection (say, in case your CD player eats your CD), then it's
legal. If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use in
making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the car. The
recording industry would disagree; however, they've never sued a consumer
for this. Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say. I
suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury. The
fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in your
favor; the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up. Giving
that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
Rod Speed
2008-06-02 18:01:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read
statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given to music
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not.
Wrong, as always.
Post by richard
If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely not.
Wrong, as always.
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making a copy only as backup
protection (say, in case your CD player eats your CD), then it's legal.
So you lied.
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use in
making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the car.
And that claim is backed up by the fair use provisions of 17USC107
Post by richard
The recording industry would disagree;
Who cares ?
Post by richard
however, they've never sued a consumer for this.
And there might just be a reason why they havent.
Post by richard
Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say.
Nope, completely trivial to say.
Post by richard
I suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury.
Nope.
Post by richard
The fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in your favor;
And there is the tiny matter of what the law allows.
Post by richard
the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Nope.
Post by richard
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up.
Its completely irrelevant given what 17USC107 allows.
Post by richard
Giving that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Duh.
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
You cant ignore this very common copying.
Deadrat
2008-06-02 21:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read
statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given to music
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making a copy only as
backup protection (say, in case your CD player eats your CD), then
it's legal.
So you lied.
That's right. Anyone who says anything you disagree with must be a liar.
He couldn't just be wrong. Or you.

The question here is whether you can copy a CD and have both copies
available for listening at the same time. The AHRA gives you a safe
harbor for personal noncommercial copying using a digital audio recording
device. So I "lied" about that too. Happy, now?

By the way, the reason you have this safe harbor is that you're
considered to have paid royalties to buy the right to copy when you
bought the particular device or medium. Copies from your PC? Not so
much.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use in
making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the car.
And that claim is backed up by the fair use provisions of 17USC107
Post by richard
The recording industry would disagree;
Who cares ?
Presumably anyone who ends up as a defendant in an infringement suit.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
however, they've never sued a consumer for this.
And there might just be a reason why they havent.
Hard to prove and little chance of recovery?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say.
Nope, completely trivial to say.
Oops! I "lied" again. You're right. Saying things is always easy.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
I suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury.
Nope.
... he explained.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
The fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in your favor;
And there is the tiny matter of what the law allows.
Post by richard
the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Nope.
... he explained.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up.
Its completely irrelevant given what 17USC107 allows.
17USC107 defines fair use, which doesn't contemplate your convenience.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Giving that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Duh.
Tell it to richard.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
You cant ignore this very common copying.
You lied. This has nothing to do with cant.
Rod Speed
2008-06-03 03:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read
statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given to music
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making a copy only as backup
protection (say, in case your CD player eats your CD), then it's legal.
So you lied.
That's right. Anyone who says anything you disagree with must be a liar.
Nope, anyone who initially made that bald statement you made at the top,
and then later provided a small part of the real story, clearly lied initially.
Post by Deadrat
He couldn't just be wrong.
You didnt say that your initial statement was wrong.
Post by Deadrat
Or you.
I cant be wrong about that particular lie of yours.
Post by Deadrat
The question here is whether you can copy a CD and
have both copies available for listening at the same time.
And even someone as stupid as you should have noticed
that that happens all the time when the contents of CDs are
loaded onto an ipod using itunes which has that capability.
Post by Deadrat
The AHRA gives you a safe harbor for personal noncommercial
copying using a digital audio recording device.
Pity that an ipod isnt a digital audio recording device according to the AHRA.
Post by Deadrat
So I "lied" about that too.
Never ever said you lied about that.
Post by Deadrat
Happy, now?
Nope. It isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
By the way, the reason you have this safe harbor is that
you're considered to have paid royalties to buy the right
to copy when you bought the particular device or medium.
Pity about your original bald statement which is clearly just plain wrong for that reason.
Post by Deadrat
Copies from your PC? Not so much.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use in
making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the car.
And that claim is backed up by the fair use provisions of 17USC107
Post by richard
The recording industry would disagree;
Who cares ?
Presumably anyone who ends up as a defendant in an infringement suit.
Which you have previously said that that industry has never been stupid enough to attempt.

So again, who cares whether the recording industry disagrees or not ?

In spades when they clearly dont bother to do anything about what is done in huge numbers with ipods.

The industry hasnt even attempted to monster Apple into not providing that capability in iTunes.

And the industry would get a flea in its ear if it was ever stupid enough to try that anyway.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
however, they've never sued a consumer for this.
And there might just be a reason why they havent.
Hard to prove and little chance of recovery?
Or it isnt actually illegal.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say.
Nope, completely trivial to say.
Oops! I "lied" again. You're right. Saying things is always easy.
And even someone as stupid as you has noticed that the recording
industry hasnt actually been stupid enough to try doing that.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
I suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
The fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in your favor;
And there is the tiny matter of what the law allows.
Post by richard
the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up.
Its completely irrelevant given what 17USC107 allows.
17USC107 defines fair use, which doesn't contemplate your convenience.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Giving that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Duh.
Tell it to richard.
No need.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
You cant ignore this very common copying.
You lied.
Cant even manage its own lines, or anything else at all, either.
Post by Deadrat
This has nothing to do with cant.
Pathetic. When all else fails, try a spelling flame.
Larry
2008-06-03 03:38:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read
statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given to music
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making a copy only as backup
protection (say, in case your CD player eats your CD), then it's legal.
So you lied.
That's right. Anyone who says anything you disagree with must be a liar.
Nope, anyone who initially made that bald statement you made at the top,
and then later provided a small part of the real story, clearly lied initially.
Post by Deadrat
He couldn't just be wrong.
You didnt say that your initial statement was wrong.
Post by Deadrat
Or you.
I cant be wrong about that particular lie of yours.
Post by Deadrat
The question here is whether you can copy a CD and
have both copies available for listening at the same time.
And even someone as stupid as you should have noticed
that that happens all the time when the contents of CDs are
loaded onto an ipod using itunes which has that capability.
Post by Deadrat
The AHRA gives you a safe harbor for personal noncommercial
copying using a digital audio recording device.
Pity that an ipod isnt a digital audio recording device according to the AHRA.
Post by Deadrat
So I "lied" about that too.
Never ever said you lied about that.
Post by Deadrat
Happy, now?
Nope. It isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
By the way, the reason you have this safe harbor is that
you're considered to have paid royalties to buy the right
to copy when you bought the particular device or medium.
Pity about your original bald statement which is clearly just plain wrong for that reason.
Post by Deadrat
Copies from your PC? Not so much.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use in
making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the car.
And that claim is backed up by the fair use provisions of 17USC107
Post by richard
The recording industry would disagree;
Who cares ?
Presumably anyone who ends up as a defendant in an infringement suit.
Which you have previously said that that industry has never been stupid enough to attempt.
So again, who cares whether the recording industry disagrees or not ?
In spades when they clearly dont bother to do anything about what is done in
huge numbers with ipods.
The industry hasnt even attempted to monster Apple into not providing that
capability in iTunes.
And the industry would get a flea in its ear if it was ever stupid enough to
try that anyway.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
however, they've never sued a consumer for this.
And there might just be a reason why they havent.
Hard to prove and little chance of recovery?
Or it isnt actually illegal.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say.
Nope, completely trivial to say.
Oops! I "lied" again. You're right. Saying things is always easy.
And even someone as stupid as you has noticed that the recording
industry hasnt actually been stupid enough to try doing that.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
I suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
The fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in your favor;
And there is the tiny matter of what the law allows.
Post by richard
the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up.
Its completely irrelevant given what 17USC107 allows.
17USC107 defines fair use, which doesn't contemplate your convenience.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Giving that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Duh.
Tell it to richard.
No need.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
You cant ignore this very common copying.
You lied.
Cant even manage its own lines, or anything else at all, either.
Post by Deadrat
This has nothing to do with cant.
Pathetic. When all else fails, try a spelling flame.
He says, after an entire post of personal insults and no substantive
comment whatsoever.
Rod Speed
2008-06-03 04:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the
end user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they
see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read
statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given to music
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making a copy only as
backup protection (say, in case your CD player eats your CD),
then it's legal.
So you lied.
That's right. Anyone who says anything you disagree with must be a liar.
Nope, anyone who initially made that bald statement you made at the top,
and then later provided a small part of the real story, clearly lied initially.
Post by Deadrat
He couldn't just be wrong.
You didnt say that your initial statement was wrong.
Post by Deadrat
Or you.
I cant be wrong about that particular lie of yours.
Post by Deadrat
The question here is whether you can copy a CD and
have both copies available for listening at the same time.
And even someone as stupid as you should have noticed
that that happens all the time when the contents of CDs are
loaded onto an ipod using itunes which has that capability.
Post by Deadrat
The AHRA gives you a safe harbor for personal noncommercial
copying using a digital audio recording device.
Pity that an ipod isnt a digital audio recording device according to the AHRA.
Post by Deadrat
So I "lied" about that too.
Never ever said you lied about that.
Post by Deadrat
Happy, now?
Nope. It isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
By the way, the reason you have this safe harbor is that
you're considered to have paid royalties to buy the right
to copy when you bought the particular device or medium.
Pity about your original bald statement which is clearly just plain
wrong for that reason.
Post by Deadrat
Copies from your PC? Not so much.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use in
making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the car.
And that claim is backed up by the fair use provisions of 17USC107
Post by richard
The recording industry would disagree;
Who cares ?
Presumably anyone who ends up as a defendant in an infringement suit.
Which you have previously said that that industry has never been
stupid enough to attempt.
So again, who cares whether the recording industry disagrees or not ?
In spades when they clearly dont bother to do anything about what is
done in huge numbers with ipods.
The industry hasnt even attempted to monster Apple into not
providing that capability in iTunes.
And the industry would get a flea in its ear if it was ever stupid
enough to try that anyway.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
however, they've never sued a consumer for this.
And there might just be a reason why they havent.
Hard to prove and little chance of recovery?
Or it isnt actually illegal.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say.
Nope, completely trivial to say.
Oops! I "lied" again. You're right. Saying things is always easy.
And even someone as stupid as you has noticed that the recording
industry hasnt actually been stupid enough to try doing that.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
I suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
The fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in your favor;
And there is the tiny matter of what the law allows.
Post by richard
the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up.
Its completely irrelevant given what 17USC107 allows.
17USC107 defines fair use, which doesn't contemplate your
convenience.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Giving that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Duh.
Tell it to richard.
No need.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
You cant ignore this very common copying.
You lied.
Cant even manage its own lines, or anything else at all, either.
Post by Deadrat
This has nothing to do with cant.
Pathetic. When all else fails, try a spelling flame.
He says, after an entire post of personal insults and no substantive comment whatsoever.
Yours in spades, liar.
Larry
2008-06-03 04:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the
end user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they
see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read
statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given to music
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my
car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making a copy only as
backup protection (say, in case your CD player eats your CD),
then it's legal.
So you lied.
That's right. Anyone who says anything you disagree with must be a liar.
Nope, anyone who initially made that bald statement you made at the top,
and then later provided a small part of the real story, clearly lied initially.
Post by Deadrat
He couldn't just be wrong.
You didnt say that your initial statement was wrong.
Post by Deadrat
Or you.
I cant be wrong about that particular lie of yours.
Post by Deadrat
The question here is whether you can copy a CD and
have both copies available for listening at the same time.
And even someone as stupid as you should have noticed
that that happens all the time when the contents of CDs are
loaded onto an ipod using itunes which has that capability.
Post by Deadrat
The AHRA gives you a safe harbor for personal noncommercial
copying using a digital audio recording device.
Pity that an ipod isnt a digital audio recording device according to the AHRA.
Post by Deadrat
So I "lied" about that too.
Never ever said you lied about that.
Post by Deadrat
Happy, now?
Nope. It isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
By the way, the reason you have this safe harbor is that
you're considered to have paid royalties to buy the right
to copy when you bought the particular device or medium.
Pity about your original bald statement which is clearly just plain
wrong for that reason.
Post by Deadrat
Copies from your PC? Not so much.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use in
making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the car.
And that claim is backed up by the fair use provisions of 17USC107
Post by richard
The recording industry would disagree;
Who cares ?
Presumably anyone who ends up as a defendant in an infringement suit.
Which you have previously said that that industry has never been
stupid enough to attempt.
So again, who cares whether the recording industry disagrees or not ?
In spades when they clearly dont bother to do anything about what is
done in huge numbers with ipods.
The industry hasnt even attempted to monster Apple into not
providing that capability in iTunes.
And the industry would get a flea in its ear if it was ever stupid
enough to try that anyway.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
however, they've never sued a consumer for this.
And there might just be a reason why they havent.
Hard to prove and little chance of recovery?
Or it isnt actually illegal.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say.
Nope, completely trivial to say.
Oops! I "lied" again. You're right. Saying things is always easy.
And even someone as stupid as you has noticed that the recording
industry hasnt actually been stupid enough to try doing that.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
I suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
The fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in your favor;
And there is the tiny matter of what the law allows.
Post by richard
the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up.
Its completely irrelevant given what 17USC107 allows.
17USC107 defines fair use, which doesn't contemplate your
convenience.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Giving that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Duh.
Tell it to richard.
No need.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
You cant ignore this very common copying.
You lied.
Cant even manage its own lines, or anything else at all, either.
Post by Deadrat
This has nothing to do with cant.
Pathetic. When all else fails, try a spelling flame.
He says, after an entire post of personal insults and no substantive
comment whatsoever.
Yours in spades, liar.
How can you resort to calling me a liar when I simply made an
observation of your post?

It's the sign of the defeated, or the troll, to so quickly resort to
calling others liars.
Rod Speed
2008-06-03 05:56:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the
end user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they
see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since
you've repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or
won't - read statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given
to music listeners in federal copyright law? Provide
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in
my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making a copy only as
backup protection (say, in case your CD player eats your CD),
then it's legal.
So you lied.
That's right. Anyone who says anything you disagree with must be a liar.
Nope, anyone who initially made that bald statement you made at the top,
and then later provided a small part of the real story, clearly lied initially.
Post by Deadrat
He couldn't just be wrong.
You didnt say that your initial statement was wrong.
Post by Deadrat
Or you.
I cant be wrong about that particular lie of yours.
Post by Deadrat
The question here is whether you can copy a CD and
have both copies available for listening at the same time.
And even someone as stupid as you should have noticed
that that happens all the time when the contents of CDs are
loaded onto an ipod using itunes which has that capability.
Post by Deadrat
The AHRA gives you a safe harbor for personal noncommercial
copying using a digital audio recording device.
Pity that an ipod isnt a digital audio recording device according to the AHRA.
Post by Deadrat
So I "lied" about that too.
Never ever said you lied about that.
Post by Deadrat
Happy, now?
Nope. It isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
By the way, the reason you have this safe harbor is that
you're considered to have paid royalties to buy the right
to copy when you bought the particular device or medium.
Pity about your original bald statement which is clearly just plain
wrong for that reason.
Post by Deadrat
Copies from your PC? Not so much.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use
in making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the
car.
And that claim is backed up by the fair use provisions of
17USC107
Post by richard
The recording industry would disagree;
Who cares ?
Presumably anyone who ends up as a defendant in an infringement suit.
Which you have previously said that that industry has never been
stupid enough to attempt.
So again, who cares whether the recording industry disagrees or not ?
In spades when they clearly dont bother to do anything about what
is done in huge numbers with ipods.
The industry hasnt even attempted to monster Apple into not
providing that capability in iTunes.
And the industry would get a flea in its ear if it was ever stupid
enough to try that anyway.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
however, they've never sued a consumer for this.
And there might just be a reason why they havent.
Hard to prove and little chance of recovery?
Or it isnt actually illegal.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say.
Nope, completely trivial to say.
Oops! I "lied" again. You're right. Saying things is always easy.
And even someone as stupid as you has noticed that the recording
industry hasnt actually been stupid enough to try doing that.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
I suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
The fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in your favor;
And there is the tiny matter of what the law allows.
Post by richard
the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up.
Its completely irrelevant given what 17USC107 allows.
17USC107 defines fair use, which doesn't contemplate your
convenience.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Giving that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Duh.
Tell it to richard.
No need.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
You cant ignore this very common copying.
You lied.
Cant even manage its own lines, or anything else at all, either.
Post by Deadrat
This has nothing to do with cant.
Pathetic. When all else fails, try a spelling flame.
He says, after an entire post of personal insults and no substantive
comment whatsoever.
Yours in spades, liar.
How can you resort to calling me a liar when I simply made an observation of your post?
Because what you said was a bare faced lie, as all can see for themselves.
It's the sign of the defeated, or the troll, to so quickly resort to calling others liars.
Not when the evidence of your lying is there for all to see.

You dont like being called a liar ? Try not lying. Novel concept, I realise.
Deadrat
2008-06-03 04:36:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read
statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given to music
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Oh, sorry. Quoting the USC not good enough for you?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Oh, sorry. Explaining what the DMCA covers not good enough for you?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making a copy only as
backup protection (say, in case your CD player eats your CD), then
it's legal.
So you lied.
That's right. Anyone who says anything you disagree with must be a liar.
Nope, anyone who initially made that bald statement you made at the
top, and then later provided a small part of the real story, clearly
lied initially.
See the end of this post.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
He couldn't just be wrong.
You didnt say that your initial statement was wrong.
If you don't understand the context of richard's whining, then just say
so. Among other things, richard wants to be able to copy his CDs however
and whenever he wants. He can't do so legally. He can probably do so
with impunity.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Or you.
I cant be wrong about that particular lie of yours.
Post by Deadrat
The question here is whether you can copy a CD and
have both copies available for listening at the same time.
And even someone as stupid as you should have noticed
that that happens all the time when the contents of CDs are
loaded onto an ipod using itunes which has that capability.
Again, the discussion with richard has nothing to do with ipods. For
every CD Richard plays on his computer, he wants to have a copy that he
can play in his car.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
The AHRA gives you a safe harbor for personal noncommercial
copying using a digital audio recording device.
Pity that an ipod isnt a digital audio recording device according to the AHRA.
Post by Deadrat
So I "lied" about that too.
Never ever said you lied about that.
Post by Deadrat
Happy, now?
Nope. It isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
By the way, the reason you have this safe harbor is that
you're considered to have paid royalties to buy the right
to copy when you bought the particular device or medium.
Pity about your original bald statement which is clearly just plain wrong for that reason.
Post by Deadrat
Copies from your PC? Not so much.
Easy to claim.
I have. Your PC isn't a digital recording device.
Post by Rod Speed
Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Just like the fun Jammie Thomas has had. Now she was found liable for
downloading, but here's a jury instruction from her trial

<quote>
Each plaintiff claims in this case that the defendant
violated its exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute
its copyrighted works. One who either reproduces or
distributes a copyrighted work during the term of the
copyright infringes the copyright, unless licensed by the
copyright owner.
</quote>

See the words "reproduces" and "unless licensed"? Somehow missing is any
mention of personal use or non-commercial use or even ipods.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use in
making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the car.
And that claim is backed up by the fair use provisions of 17USC107
Post by richard
The recording industry would disagree;
Who cares ?
Presumably anyone who ends up as a defendant in an infringement suit.
Which you have previously said that that industry has never been stupid enough to attempt.
You ask who would care. I told you. The "industry" has been "stupid"
enough to go after file sharers. Ask Jammie Thomas if she cares. What
the RIAA lacks in smarts it makes up in ruthlessness.
Post by Rod Speed
So again, who cares whether the recording industry disagrees or not ?
How about anyone who wants to obey the law as a matter of principle.
Post by Rod Speed
In spades when they clearly dont bother to do anything about what is
done in huge numbers with ipods.
The industry hasnt even attempted to monster Apple into not providing
that capability in iTunes.
And the industry would get a flea in its ear if it was ever stupid
enough to try that anyway.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
however, they've never sued a consumer for this.
And there might just be a reason why they havent.
Hard to prove and little chance of recovery?
Or it isnt actually illegal.
So you say.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say.
Nope, completely trivial to say.
Oops! I "lied" again. You're right. Saying things is always easy.
And even someone as stupid as you has noticed that the recording
industry hasnt actually been stupid enough to try doing that.
What is strategically wise and tactically remunerative is different from
what the law says.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
I suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
The fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in your favor;
And there is the tiny matter of what the law allows.
Post by richard
the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up.
Its completely irrelevant given what 17USC107 allows.
17USC107 defines fair use, which doesn't contemplate your
convenience.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
... he explained. Go read 17USC107
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Giving that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Duh.
Tell it to richard.
No need.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
You cant ignore this very common copying.
This "very common copying" is in murky legal waters, not least because
the RIAA has at times claimed that its clients have given permission for
this type of "format shifting" copying. And, of course, I lied in my
discusion by omitting the fact that you may make copies when you're
granted permission to do so.

So sorry.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
You lied.
Cant even manage its own lines, or anything else at all, either.
Post by Deadrat
This has nothing to do with cant.
Pathetic. When all else fails, try a spelling flame.
Damn! I just hate it when I have to explain things to the literal
minded. It just takes all the fun out of it.

Remember those analogies on that test you took in the 8th grade? Try
this:

Your complaining that I lied about what I discussed is on the same level
as my complaining that you posted the noun "cant" when it's clear that
you meant the contraction "can't."

Get it?

Or do I need to type slower?
Rod Speed
2008-06-03 20:29:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read
statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given to music
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Oh, sorry. Quoting the USC not good enough for you?
You didnt do that.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Oh, sorry. Explaining what the DMCA covers not good enough for you?
You didnt do that either.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making a copy only as backup
protection (say, in case your CD player eats your CD), then it's legal.
So you lied.
That's right. Anyone who says anything you disagree with must be a liar.
Nope, anyone who initially made that bald statement you made at the top,
and then later provided a small part of the real story, clearly lied initially.
See the end of this post.
Completely useless, as always.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
He couldn't just be wrong.
You didnt say that your initial statement was wrong.
If you don't understand the context of richard's whining, then just say so.
I didnt even comment on anything he said.

I JUST commented on that stupid lie of yours.
Post by Deadrat
Among other things, richard wants to be able to copy his
CDs however and whenever he wants. He can't do so legally.
Irrelevant to that stupid lie of yours which wasnt even to richard.
Post by Deadrat
He can probably do so with impunity.
He certainly can as long has he isnt actually stupid enough to do it in volume for money.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Or you.
I cant be wrong about that particular lie of yours.
Post by Deadrat
The question here is whether you can copy a CD and
have both copies available for listening at the same time.
And even someone as stupid as you should have noticed
that that happens all the time when the contents of CDs are
loaded onto an ipod using itunes which has that capability.
Again, the discussion with richard has nothing to do with ipods.
This subthread has nothing to do with richard at all.
Post by Deadrat
For every CD Richard plays on his computer, he
wants to have a copy that he can play in his car.
And making a separate copy for the car isnt legally any different
to loading it from the CD into an ipod so you can play that music
when it isnt convenient to play it from the original CD.

And its legal to do that, whatever you claim.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
The AHRA gives you a safe harbor for personal noncommercial
copying using a digital audio recording device.
Pity that an ipod isnt a digital audio recording device according to the AHRA.
Post by Deadrat
So I "lied" about that too.
Never ever said you lied about that.
Post by Deadrat
Happy, now?
Nope. It isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
By the way, the reason you have this safe harbor is that
you're considered to have paid royalties to buy the right
to copy when you bought the particular device or medium.
Pity about your original bald statement which
is clearly just plain wrong for that reason.
Post by Deadrat
Copies from your PC? Not so much.
Easy to claim.
I have. Your PC isn't a digital recording device.
Neither is an ipod.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Just like the fun Jammie Thomas has had. Now she was found liable for downloading,
And no one has been found liable when they loaded their ipod from a CD they have purchased.
Post by Deadrat
but here's a jury instruction from her trial
<quote>
Each plaintiff claims in this case that the defendant
violated its exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute
its copyrighted works. One who either reproduces or
distributes a copyrighted work during the term of the
copyright infringes the copyright, unless licensed by the
copyright owner.
</quote>
See the words "reproduces" and "unless licensed"? Somehow missing
is any mention of personal use or non-commercial use or even ipods.
How odd that no one has been shafted for loading their ipod from a CD they own.

Its nothing like as black and white as you claim.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use in
making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the car.
And that claim is backed up by the fair use provisions of 17USC107
Post by richard
The recording industry would disagree;
Who cares ?
Presumably anyone who ends up as a defendant in an infringement suit.
Which you have previously said that that industry
has never been stupid enough to attempt.
You ask who would care. I told you.
You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelevant.
Post by Deadrat
The "industry" has been "stupid" enough to go after file sharers.
Irrelevant to whether they have ever been stupid enough to try
that with those who copy a CD they own so they can use it in
their car, or have loaded an ipod with a CD that they own.
Post by Deadrat
Ask Jammie Thomas if she cares.
She didnt just copy a CD that she owns so that she can use it in her car.

She's completely irrelevant to what is actually being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
What the RIAA lacks in smarts it makes up in ruthlessness.
How odd that they have never been stupid enough to try
that with those who copy a CD they own so they can use it
in their car, or have loaded an ipod with a CD that they own.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
So again, who cares whether the recording industry disagrees or not ?
How about anyone who wants to obey the law as a matter of principle.
And any of those with a clue will have noticed that since the recording
industry has never actually been stupid enough to go after anyone who
has made a copy of a CD that they own for use in their car, or have
loaded an ipod from a CD that they own, that given how aggressive the
RIAA is, that its a tad unlikely that either of those activitys are actually illegal.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
In spades when they clearly dont bother to do anything
about what is done in huge numbers with ipods.
The industry hasnt even attempted to monster
Apple into not providing that capability in iTunes.
And the industry would get a flea in its ear if it was ever stupid enough to try that anyway.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
however, they've never sued a consumer for this.
And there might just be a reason why they havent.
Hard to prove and little chance of recovery?
Or it isnt actually illegal.
So you say.
You in spades with the reverse.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say.
Nope, completely trivial to say.
Oops! I "lied" again. You're right. Saying things is always easy.
And even someone as stupid as you has noticed that the recording
industry hasnt actually been stupid enough to try doing that.
What is strategically wise and tactically remunerative is different from what the law says.
Easy to claim what the law purportedly says.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
I suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
The fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in your favor;
And there is the tiny matter of what the law allows.
Post by richard
the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up.
Its completely irrelevant given what 17USC107 allows.
17USC107 defines fair use, which doesn't contemplate your convenience.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Go read 17USC107
That isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Giving that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Duh.
Tell it to richard.
No need.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
You cant ignore this very common copying.
This "very common copying" is in murky legal waters,
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Post by Deadrat
not least because the RIAA has at times claimed that its clients
have given permission for this type of "format shifting" copying.
And, of course, I lied in my discusion by omitting the fact that
you may make copies when you're granted permission to do so.
So sorry.
See above on ending up completely blind.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
You lied.
Cant even manage its own lines, or anything else at all, either.
Post by Deadrat
This has nothing to do with cant.
Pathetic. When all else fails, try a spelling flame.
Damn! I just hate it when I have to explain things to
the literal minded. It just takes all the fun out of it.
Then do the decent thing and top yourself or sumfin.
Post by Deadrat
Remember those analogies on that test you took in the 8th grade?
Didnt happen.
Post by Deadrat
Your complaining that I lied about what I discussed is on the
same level as my complaining that you posted the noun "cant"
when it's clear that you meant the contraction "can't."
Nope.
Post by Deadrat
Get it?
Nothing to get.
Post by Deadrat
Or do I need to type slower?
Just let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.

And retake Bullshitting 101.
Larry
2008-06-03 21:06:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read
statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given to music
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my
car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Oh, sorry. Quoting the USC not good enough for you?
You didnt do that.
Its been both quoted and cited in this thread. Are you reading the same
posts as the rest of us?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Oh, sorry. Explaining what the DMCA covers not good enough for you?
You didnt do that either.
The rest of us read the explanation. Are you reading the same posts as
the rest of us?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making a copy only as backup
protection (say, in case your CD player eats your CD), then it's legal.
So you lied.
That's right. Anyone who says anything you disagree with must be a liar.
Nope, anyone who initially made that bald statement you made at the top,
and then later provided a small part of the real story, clearly lied initially.
See the end of this post.
Completely useless, as always.
What exactly have you added to the thread (or subthread, as you call it)
with your last 2-3 posts?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
He couldn't just be wrong.
You didnt say that your initial statement was wrong.
If you don't understand the context of richard's whining, then just say so.
I didnt even comment on anything he said.
I JUST commented on that stupid lie of yours.
You know there is a difference between a lie and a mistake, right?

Not that its clear either one happened here, but wouldn't you agree that
"mistake" is more applicable to a wrong statement made by a layperson in
this discussion of what is legal and what isn't in the area of IP?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Among other things, richard wants to be able to copy his
CDs however and whenever he wants. He can't do so legally.
Irrelevant to that stupid lie of yours which wasnt even to richard.
You know who he was directing his comments to? Are you inside his mind,
or did he tell you?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
He can probably do so with impunity.
He certainly can as long has he isnt actually stupid enough to do it in volume for money.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Or you.
I cant be wrong about that particular lie of yours.
Post by Deadrat
The question here is whether you can copy a CD and
have both copies available for listening at the same time.
And even someone as stupid as you should have noticed
that that happens all the time when the contents of CDs are
loaded onto an ipod using itunes which has that capability.
Again, the discussion with richard has nothing to do with ipods.
This subthread has nothing to do with richard at all.
Post by Deadrat
For every CD Richard plays on his computer, he
wants to have a copy that he can play in his car.
And making a separate copy for the car isnt legally any different
to loading it from the CD into an ipod so you can play that music
when it isnt convenient to play it from the original CD.
So he says, again without cite.
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to do that, whatever you claim.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
The AHRA gives you a safe harbor for personal noncommercial
copying using a digital audio recording device.
Pity that an ipod isnt a digital audio recording device according to the AHRA.
Post by Deadrat
So I "lied" about that too.
Never ever said you lied about that.
Post by Deadrat
Happy, now?
Nope. It isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
By the way, the reason you have this safe harbor is that
you're considered to have paid royalties to buy the right
to copy when you bought the particular device or medium.
Pity about your original bald statement which
is clearly just plain wrong for that reason.
Post by Deadrat
Copies from your PC? Not so much.
Easy to claim.
I have. Your PC isn't a digital recording device.
Neither is an ipod.
No one claimed otherwise, have they? Thanks for clearing up this
nonissue.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Just like the fun Jammie Thomas has had. Now she was found liable for downloading,
And no one has been found liable when they loaded their ipod from a CD they have purchased.
Post by Deadrat
but here's a jury instruction from her trial
<quote>
Each plaintiff claims in this case that the defendant
violated its exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute
its copyrighted works. One who either reproduces or
distributes a copyrighted work during the term of the
copyright infringes the copyright, unless licensed by the
copyright owner.
</quote>
See the words "reproduces" and "unless licensed"? Somehow missing
is any mention of personal use or non-commercial use or even ipods.
How odd that no one has been shafted for loading their ipod from a CD they own.
It's not odd at all. It's a cost-benefit analysis. The RIAA would have
to show actual damages to prevail on a claim. What would be the damages
in a given case? The price of a CD? Even if you add punitive damages
at, say, 10x the actual compensatory damages, you're looking at a
judgment of under $200. One hour of an RIAA's attorney's time is worth
more than that.
Post by Rod Speed
Its nothing like as black and white as you claim.
Black and white? He's the one who said it was uncertain since there
isn't any case law on point, isn't he?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use in
making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the car.
And that claim is backed up by the fair use provisions of 17USC107
Post by richard
The recording industry would disagree;
Who cares ?
Presumably anyone who ends up as a defendant in an infringement suit.
Which you have previously said that that industry
has never been stupid enough to attempt.
You ask who would care. I told you.
You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelevant.
Actually, most people here in misc.legal (where are you from,
misc.consumers, I take it?) would tell you that whether you agree with
him or not, Deadrat's posts are almost always informative,
well-reasoned, and on-point.

You, on the other hand, aren't making quite as impressive of an
impression.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
The "industry" has been "stupid" enough to go after file sharers.
Irrelevant to whether they have ever been stupid enough to try
that with those who copy a CD they own so they can use it in
their car, or have loaded an ipod with a CD that they own.
Post by Deadrat
Ask Jammie Thomas if she cares.
She didnt just copy a CD that she owns so that she can use it in her car.
She's completely irrelevant to what is actually being discussed.
Only because her case undermines your point, so you change the target
and call it irrelevant.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
What the RIAA lacks in smarts it makes up in ruthlessness.
How odd that they have never been stupid enough to try
that with those who copy a CD they own so they can use it
in their car, or have loaded an ipod with a CD that they own.
It's not odd at all.

Let's think of why they might not have ever brought suit in this case:

1) The issue of damages, as I discussed above.

2) The issue of proof. Internet activity can be traced and documented
and proven via ISP records and server log files and the like. But if
you walk into a music store, buy a CD, and copy it to an iPod or to
another CD for your car, how would the RIAA ever find out that this
happened? And how could they prove it in court?

As an attorney, those strike me as two very good reasons not to bring a
lawsuit.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
So again, who cares whether the recording industry disagrees or not ?
How about anyone who wants to obey the law as a matter of principle.
And any of those with a clue will have noticed that since the recording
industry has never actually been stupid enough to go after anyone who
has made a copy of a CD that they own for use in their car, or have
loaded an ipod from a CD that they own, that given how aggressive the
RIAA is, that its a tad unlikely that either of those activitys are actually illegal.
Actually, those with a clue will know that just because they never sued
someone doesn't indicate one way or the other whether such activity is
illegal. As Deadrat said, this is a tactical decision (for which I
outlined reasons above why they might practically choose not to sue, or
are unable to prove the activity), and has no bearing on whether the
activity is legal.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
In spades when they clearly dont bother to do anything
about what is done in huge numbers with ipods.
The industry hasnt even attempted to monster
Apple into not providing that capability in iTunes.
And the industry would get a flea in its ear if it was ever stupid enough
to try that anyway.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
however, they've never sued a consumer for this.
And there might just be a reason why they havent.
Hard to prove and little chance of recovery?
Or it isnt actually illegal.
So you say.
You in spades with the reverse.
Does this make sense to anyone? Anyone?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say.
Nope, completely trivial to say.
Oops! I "lied" again. You're right. Saying things is always easy.
And even someone as stupid as you has noticed that the recording
industry hasnt actually been stupid enough to try doing that.
What is strategically wise and tactically remunerative is different from
what the law says.
Easy to claim what the law purportedly says.
It sure is. Great insight. He claimed what the law says, and there
have been cites and quotes in this thread as well. Can you outline what
exactly you think he "lied" about and what statutes show he is wrong?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
I suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
You disagreed with him. What's the basis for your disagreement? Case
law? Statute? Other?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
The fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in your favor;
And there is the tiny matter of what the law allows.
Post by richard
the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up.
Its completely irrelevant given what 17USC107 allows.
17USC107 defines fair use, which doesn't contemplate your convenience.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Go read 17USC107
That isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Giving that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Duh.
Tell it to richard.
No need.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
You cant ignore this very common copying.
This "very common copying" is in murky legal waters,
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
By virtue that there is no case law on the point, and the statutes are
ambiguous at best, it appears that "murky" is an accurate description.
If you think it is crystal clear, please explain why.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
not least because the RIAA has at times claimed that its clients
have given permission for this type of "format shifting" copying.
And, of course, I lied in my discusion by omitting the fact that
you may make copies when you're granted permission to do so.
So sorry.
See above on ending up completely blind.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
You lied.
Cant even manage its own lines, or anything else at all, either.
Post by Deadrat
This has nothing to do with cant.
Pathetic. When all else fails, try a spelling flame.
Damn! I just hate it when I have to explain things to
the literal minded. It just takes all the fun out of it.
Then do the decent thing and top yourself or sumfin.
Another sentence that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Remember those analogies on that test you took in the 8th grade?
Didnt happen.
Did you attend eighth grade?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Your complaining that I lied about what I discussed is on the
same level as my complaining that you posted the noun "cant"
when it's clear that you meant the contraction "can't."
Nope.
Nope? That's your response? Do you see how this actually supports the
point Deadrat was making?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Get it?
Nothing to get.
Do you see how this actually supports the point Deadrat was making?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Or do I need to type slower?
Just let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
And retake Bullshitting 101.
Do you see how this actually supports the point Deadrat was making?
Rod Speed
2008-06-03 21:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read
statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given to music listeners
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Oh, sorry. Quoting the USC not good enough for you?
You didnt do that.
Its been both quoted and cited in this thread.
But he didnt do that in this subthread.
Post by Larry
Are you reading the same posts as the rest of us?
How many of you are there between those ears ?
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Oh, sorry. Explaining what the DMCA covers not good enough for you?
You didnt do that either.
The rest of us read the explanation.
Not in this subthread you didnt.
Post by Larry
Are you reading the same posts as the rest of us?
How many of you are there between those ears ?
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making a copy only
as backup protection (say, in case your CD player eats your
CD), then it's legal.
So you lied.
That's right. Anyone who says anything you disagree with must be a liar.
Nope, anyone who initially made that bald statement you made at the top,
and then later provided a small part of the real story, clearly lied initially.
See the end of this post.
Completely useless, as always.
What exactly have you added to the thread
What exactly have you added to the thread ?
Post by Larry
(or subthread, as you call it)
Because that is what it is.
Post by Larry
with your last 2-3 posts?
You in spades, hypocrite.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
He couldn't just be wrong.
You didnt say that your initial statement was wrong.
If you don't understand the context of richard's whining, then just say so.
I didnt even comment on anything he said.
I JUST commented on that stupid lie of yours.
You know there is a difference between a lie and a mistake, right?
Yep, and since he keeps repeating that lie, it cant be a mistake.
Post by Larry
Not that its clear either one happened here, but wouldn't you agree that
"mistake" is more applicable to a wrong statement made by a layperson
in this discussion of what is legal and what isn't in the area of IP?
His bald statement clearly wasnt a mistake. Its a lie.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Among other things, richard wants to be able to copy his
CDs however and whenever he wants. He can't do so legally.
Irrelevant to that stupid lie of yours which wasnt even to richard.
You know who he was directing his comments to?
Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the attributions if someone
was actually stupid enough to lend you a seeing eye dog and a white cane.
Post by Larry
Are you inside his mind, or did he tell you?
Pathetic.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
He can probably do so with impunity.
He certainly can as long has he isnt actually stupid enough to do it in volume for money.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Or you.
I cant be wrong about that particular lie of yours.
Post by Deadrat
The question here is whether you can copy a CD and
have both copies available for listening at the same time.
And even someone as stupid as you should have noticed
that that happens all the time when the contents of CDs are
loaded onto an ipod using itunes which has that capability.
Again, the discussion with richard has nothing to do with ipods.
This subthread has nothing to do with richard at all.
Post by Deadrat
For every CD Richard plays on his computer, he
wants to have a copy that he can play in his car.
And making a separate copy for the car isnt legally any different
to loading it from the CD into an ipod so you can play that music
when it isnt convenient to play it from the original CD.
So he says, again without cite.
Just like you eh ?
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to do that, whatever you claim.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
The AHRA gives you a safe harbor for personal noncommercial
copying using a digital audio recording device.
Pity that an ipod isnt a digital audio recording device according to the AHRA.
Post by Deadrat
So I "lied" about that too.
Never ever said you lied about that.
Post by Deadrat
Happy, now?
Nope. It isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
By the way, the reason you have this safe harbor is that
you're considered to have paid royalties to buy the right
to copy when you bought the particular device or medium.
Pity about your original bald statement which
is clearly just plain wrong for that reason.
Post by Deadrat
Copies from your PC? Not so much.
Easy to claim.
I have. Your PC isn't a digital recording device.
Neither is an ipod.
No one claimed otherwise, have they?
Never said they did.
Post by Larry
Thanks for clearing up this nonissue.
No thanks for that pathetic excuse for bullshit.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Just like the fun Jammie Thomas has had.
Now she was found liable for downloading,
And no one has been found liable when they
loaded their ipod from a CD they have purchased.
Post by Deadrat
but here's a jury instruction from her trial
<quote>
Each plaintiff claims in this case that the defendant
violated its exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute
its copyrighted works. One who either reproduces or
distributes a copyrighted work during the term of the
copyright infringes the copyright, unless licensed by the
copyright owner.
</quote>
See the words "reproduces" and "unless licensed"? Somehow missing
is any mention of personal use or non-commercial use or even ipods.
How odd that no one has been shafted for loading their ipod from a CD they own.
It's not odd at all. It's a cost-benefit analysis.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim given how popular ipods have become.
Post by Larry
The RIAA would have to show actual damages to prevail on a claim.
Nope, not to bluff hordes of people into paying for downloads to their ipods
instead of just using iTunes to load the ipod from the CD that they already own.
Post by Larry
What would be the damages in a given case? The price of a CD?
Irrelevant to bluffing hordes of people into paying for downloads to their ipods
instead of just using iTunes to load the ipod from the CD that they already own.
Post by Larry
Even if you add punitive damages at, say, 10x the actual compensatory
damages, you're looking at a judgment of under $200. One hour of an
RIAA's attorney's time is worth more than that.
Irrelevant to bluffing hordes of people into paying for downloads to their ipods
instead of just using iTunes to load the ipod from the CD that they already own.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Its nothing like as black and white as you claim.
Black and white?
Yep, check the bald claim he made at the top with the ...... in it.

THATS what is actually being discussed in this particular subthread.
Post by Larry
He's the one who said it was uncertain since there isn't any case law on point, isn't he?
Nothing like that stupid claim he made that
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use in
making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the car.
And that claim is backed up by the fair use provisions of 17USC107
Post by richard
The recording industry would disagree;
Who cares ?
Presumably anyone who ends up as a defendant in an infringement suit.
Which you have previously said that that industry
has never been stupid enough to attempt.
You ask who would care. I told you.
You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelevant.
Actually, most people here in misc.legal (where are you from, misc.consumers,
I take it?) would tell you that whether you agree with him or not, Deadrat's posts
are almost always informative, well-reasoned, and on-point.
If you're gunna suck his dick, at least have the decency to do it in private.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
The "industry" has been "stupid" enough to go after file sharers.
Irrelevant to whether they have ever been stupid enough to try
that with those who copy a CD they own so they can use it in
their car, or have loaded an ipod with a CD that they own.
Post by Deadrat
Ask Jammie Thomas if she cares.
She didnt just copy a CD that she owns so that she can use it in her car.
She's completely irrelevant to what is actually being discussed.
Only because her case undermines your point,
so you change the target and call it irrelevant.
Lying, as always.

Her case has no relevance what so ever to what is being
discussed in this subthread this particular stupid claim he made.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
What the RIAA lacks in smarts it makes up in ruthlessness.
How odd that they have never been stupid enough to try
that with those who copy a CD they own so they can use it
in their car, or have loaded an ipod with a CD that they own.
It's not odd at all.
1) The issue of damages, as I discussed above.
2) The issue of proof. Internet activity can be traced and documented
and proven via ISP records and server log files and the like. But if
you walk into a music store, buy a CD, and copy it to an iPod or to
another CD for your car, how would the RIAA ever find out that this
happened? And how could they prove it in court?
Or that it isnt illegal and they know it.
Post by Larry
As an attorney, those strike me as two very good reasons not to bring a lawsuit.
Pity about the real reason, that it isnt illegal.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
So again, who cares whether the recording industry disagrees or not ?
How about anyone who wants to obey the law as a matter of principle.
And any of those with a clue will have noticed that since the recording
industry has never actually been stupid enough to go after anyone who
has made a copy of a CD that they own for use in their car, or have
loaded an ipod from a CD that they own, that given how aggressive the
RIAA is, that its a tad unlikely that either of those activitys are actually illegal.
Actually, those with a clue will know that just because they never sued
someone doesn't indicate one way or the other whether such activity is illegal.
It is very likely tho when ipods become so common.

The industry hasnt even attempted to monster Apple into removing that
capability from iTunes, because they know very well that they would just
get a flea in their ear if they were ever actually stupid enough to try it.
Post by Larry
As Deadrat said, this is a tactical decision
With ipods becoming so common eh ? Yeah, right.
Post by Larry
(for which I outlined reasons above why they might practically
choose not to sue, or are unable to prove the activity),
Pity about other stuff like what iTunes can do.
Post by Larry
and has no bearing on whether the activity is legal.
It is however MUCH more likely that the reason they dont do anything about it is
because they cant, because it isnt illegal to load an ipod from a CD that you own.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
In spades when they clearly dont bother to do anything
about what is done in huge numbers with ipods.
The industry hasnt even attempted to monster
Apple into not providing that capability in iTunes.
And the industry would get a flea in its ear if it was ever stupid enough to try that anyway.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
however, they've never sued a consumer for this.
And there might just be a reason why they havent.
Hard to prove and little chance of recovery?
Or it isnt actually illegal.
So you say.
You in spades with the reverse.
Does this make sense to anyone? Anyone?
Hardly anyone bothers to read your shit.

Just your bum chum deadrat.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say.
Nope, completely trivial to say.
Oops! I "lied" again. You're right. Saying things is always easy.
And even someone as stupid as you has noticed that the recording
industry hasnt actually been stupid enough to try doing that.
What is strategically wise and tactically remunerative is different
from what the law says.
Easy to claim what the law purportedly says.
It sure is. Great insight. He claimed what the law says,
and there have been cites and quotes in this thread as well.
Not one of which actually supported that claim of his.
Post by Larry
Can you outline what exactly you think he "lied" about
Already did.
Post by Larry
and what statutes show he is wrong?
HE made the claim.

HE gets to do that.

THATS how it works.

Here it is again in case you have got lost again
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
I suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
You disagreed with him.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
Post by Larry
What's the basis for your disagreement? Case law? Statute? Other?
What's the basis for your disagreement? Case law? Statute? Other?
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
The fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in your favor;
And there is the tiny matter of what the law allows.
Post by richard
the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up.
Its completely irrelevant given what 17USC107 allows.
17USC107 defines fair use, which doesn't contemplate your convenience.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Go read 17USC107
That isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Giving that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Duh.
Tell it to richard.
No need.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
You cant ignore this very common copying.
This "very common copying" is in murky legal waters,
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
By virtue that there is no case law on the point,
and the statutes are ambiguous at best,
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Post by Larry
it appears that "murky" is an accurate description.
Nope.
Post by Larry
If you think it is crystal clear,
Never ever said that.
Post by Larry
please explain why.
Just did.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
not least because the RIAA has at times claimed that its clients
have given permission for this type of "format shifting" copying.
And, of course, I lied in my discusion by omitting the fact that
you may make copies when you're granted permission to do so.
So sorry.
See above on ending up completely blind.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
You lied.
Cant even manage its own lines, or anything else at all, either.
Post by Deadrat
This has nothing to do with cant.
Pathetic. When all else fails, try a spelling flame.
Damn! I just hate it when I have to explain things to
the literal minded. It just takes all the fun out of it.
Then do the decent thing and top yourself or sumfin.
Another sentence that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Remember those analogies on that test you took in the 8th grade?
Didnt happen.
Did you attend eighth grade?
Yep.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Your complaining that I lied about what I discussed is on the
same level as my complaining that you posted the noun "cant"
when it's clear that you meant the contraction "can't."
Nope.
Nope? That's your response?
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
Post by Larry
Do you see how this actually supports the point Deadrat was making?
No it doesnt, and he wasnt even making a case either.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Get it?
Nothing to get.
Do you see how this actually supports the point Deadrat was making?
Record's stuck.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Or do I need to type slower?
Just let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
And retake Bullshitting 101.
Do you see how this actually supports the point Deadrat was making?
Record's stuck.
Larry
2008-06-03 23:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read
statutes. Can you cite me a "right" given to music listeners
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at
all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my
car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Oh, sorry. Quoting the USC not good enough for you?
You didnt do that.
Its been both quoted and cited in this thread.
But he didnt do that in this subthread.
So it was done, and you're upset he wasn't repetitive?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Are you reading the same posts as the rest of us?
How many of you are there between those ears ?
Do you think I am the only person reading these posts? Really?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Oh, sorry. Explaining what the DMCA covers not good enough for you?
You didnt do that either.
The rest of us read the explanation.
Not in this subthread you didnt.
Post by Larry
Are you reading the same posts as the rest of us?
How many of you are there between those ears ?
Do you think I am the only person reading these posts? Really?

You know, you have a habit of just mimicking the post you're responding
to. Deadrat points out something you didn't do, so you claim he didn't
do it either. I ask you a question, and you ask me a question in
response.

It doesn't reflect well on your cognitive thinking skills.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making a copy only
as backup protection (say, in case your CD player eats your
CD), then it's legal.
So you lied.
That's right. Anyone who says anything you disagree with must be a liar.
Nope, anyone who initially made that bald statement you made at the top,
and then later provided a small part of the real story, clearly lied initially.
See the end of this post.
Completely useless, as always.
What exactly have you added to the thread
What exactly have you added to the thread ?
More than you, and it ain't even close.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
(or subthread, as you call it)
Because that is what it is.
Post by Larry
with your last 2-3 posts?
You in spades, hypocrite.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
He couldn't just be wrong.
You didnt say that your initial statement was wrong.
If you don't understand the context of richard's whining, then just say so.
I didnt even comment on anything he said.
I JUST commented on that stupid lie of yours.
You know there is a difference between a lie and a mistake, right?
Yep, and since he keeps repeating that lie, it cant be a mistake.
So you define a lie as a mistake that is repeated over and over again?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Not that its clear either one happened here, but wouldn't you agree that
"mistake" is more applicable to a wrong statement made by a layperson
in this discussion of what is legal and what isn't in the area of IP?
His bald statement clearly wasnt a mistake. Its a lie.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Among other things, richard wants to be able to copy his
CDs however and whenever he wants. He can't do so legally.
Irrelevant to that stupid lie of yours which wasnt even to richard.
You know who he was directing his comments to?
Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the attributions if someone
was actually stupid enough to lend you a seeing eye dog and a white cane.
If I was blind, how would a cane or seeing-eye dog help me check
attributions? Moron.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Are you inside his mind, or did he tell you?
Pathetic.
Your posts seem to be just that. Profound self-analysis.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
He can probably do so with impunity.
He certainly can as long has he isnt actually stupid enough to do it in
volume for money.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Or you.
I cant be wrong about that particular lie of yours.
Post by Deadrat
The question here is whether you can copy a CD and
have both copies available for listening at the same time.
And even someone as stupid as you should have noticed
that that happens all the time when the contents of CDs are
loaded onto an ipod using itunes which has that capability.
Again, the discussion with richard has nothing to do with ipods.
This subthread has nothing to do with richard at all.
Post by Deadrat
For every CD Richard plays on his computer, he
wants to have a copy that he can play in his car.
And making a separate copy for the car isnt legally any different
to loading it from the CD into an ipod so you can play that music
when it isnt convenient to play it from the original CD.
So he says, again without cite.
Just like you eh ?
You want me to cite the fact that you haven't provided cites? You just
like hearing yourself argue, don't you?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to do that, whatever you claim.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
The AHRA gives you a safe harbor for personal noncommercial
copying using a digital audio recording device.
Pity that an ipod isnt a digital audio recording device according to the AHRA.
Post by Deadrat
So I "lied" about that too.
Never ever said you lied about that.
Post by Deadrat
Happy, now?
Nope. It isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
By the way, the reason you have this safe harbor is that
you're considered to have paid royalties to buy the right
to copy when you bought the particular device or medium.
Pity about your original bald statement which
is clearly just plain wrong for that reason.
Post by Deadrat
Copies from your PC? Not so much.
Easy to claim.
I have. Your PC isn't a digital recording device.
Neither is an ipod.
No one claimed otherwise, have they?
Never said they did.
So why contribute that irrelevant, meaningless, and uncontested nugget
to this discussion?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Thanks for clearing up this nonissue.
No thanks for that pathetic excuse for bullshit.
You're the one who introduced the irrelevant, meaningless, and
uncontested issue into this discussion.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Just like the fun Jammie Thomas has had.
Now she was found liable for downloading,
And no one has been found liable when they
loaded their ipod from a CD they have purchased.
Post by Deadrat
but here's a jury instruction from her trial
<quote>
Each plaintiff claims in this case that the defendant
violated its exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute
its copyrighted works. One who either reproduces or
distributes a copyrighted work during the term of the
copyright infringes the copyright, unless licensed by the
copyright owner.
</quote>
See the words "reproduces" and "unless licensed"? Somehow missing
is any mention of personal use or non-commercial use or even ipods.
How odd that no one has been shafted for loading their ipod from a CD they own.
It's not odd at all. It's a cost-benefit analysis.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim given how popular
ipods have become.
If you continued reading - and actually understood what I wrote - you'd
see the popularity of iPods is irrelevant. In fact, it could backfire
if they brought such a suit and lost, and as I said below, there are
huge problems proving the case.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
The RIAA would have to show actual damages to prevail on a claim.
Nope, not to bluff hordes of people into paying for downloads to their ipods
instead of just using iTunes to load the ipod from the CD that they already own.
Sorry, bringing a lawsuit as a "bluff" makes for good TV, but is
unethical. Not to mention expensive if your bluff is called, as you'd
not only lose, but you could be liable for the other sides expenses if
the case is deemed frivolous. Oh, and there's also the fact that you
could be estopped from bringing the claim against others in the future.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
What would be the damages in a given case? The price of a CD?
Irrelevant to bluffing hordes of people into paying for downloads to their ipods
instead of just using iTunes to load the ipod from the CD that they already own.
You think hordes of people would be bluffed if the RIAA sued Joe Schmo
in Des Moines for $12.99, the price of a CD had he bought two instead of
copying his?

If you'd cave in on that bluff, you're spineless.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Even if you add punitive damages at, say, 10x the actual compensatory
damages, you're looking at a judgment of under $200. One hour of an
RIAA's attorney's time is worth more than that.
Irrelevant to bluffing hordes of people into paying for downloads to their ipods
instead of just using iTunes to load the ipod from the CD that they already own.
Okay, okay, I get it. You think the legal and tactical obstacles are
irrelevant to bluffing, even though they're relevant to actually winning
the case.

But think for a minute (you can think, can't you?) what someone who was
sued under this "bluff" would do. They'd consult a lawyer. The lawyer
would say "they got nothing, don't settle, fight this." He might add
"Let's countersue for wasting your time and harassing you without merit."

That bluff would be over before it began.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Its nothing like as black and white as you claim.
Black and white?
Yep, check the bald claim he made at the top with the ...... in it.
THATS what is actually being discussed in this particular subthread.
Post by Larry
He's the one who said it was uncertain since there isn't any case law on
point, isn't he?
Nothing like that stupid claim he made that
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my
car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Why is it you think that you are allowed to make such a copy? If it is
such a stupid claim, you should be able to prove it to be stupid in a
matter of sentences, if not less. (Note: I expect at least one cite to
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use in
making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the car.
And that claim is backed up by the fair use provisions of 17USC107
Post by richard
The recording industry would disagree;
Who cares ?
Presumably anyone who ends up as a defendant in an infringement suit.
Which you have previously said that that industry
has never been stupid enough to attempt.
You ask who would care. I told you.
You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelevant.
Actually, most people here in misc.legal (where are you from, misc.consumers,
I take it?) would tell you that whether you agree with him or not, Deadrat's posts
are almost always informative, well-reasoned, and on-point.
If you're gunna suck his dick, at least have the decency to do it in private.
He and I disagree about as much as we disagree. But it doesn't mean
there isn't respect there. If you mistake that for homosexual activity,
you may want to self-reflect on why you jump to that conclusion.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
The "industry" has been "stupid" enough to go after file sharers.
Irrelevant to whether they have ever been stupid enough to try
that with those who copy a CD they own so they can use it in
their car, or have loaded an ipod with a CD that they own.
Post by Deadrat
Ask Jammie Thomas if she cares.
She didnt just copy a CD that she owns so that she can use it in her car.
She's completely irrelevant to what is actually being discussed.
Only because her case undermines your point,
so you change the target and call it irrelevant.
Lying, as always.
Remember above how I said you always respond in kind? To a claim of no
cites with a claim of no cites, to a question with a question? Well, I
forgot to add that calling your opponent a liar is also a popular
response of yours.
Post by Rod Speed
Her case has no relevance what so ever to what is being
discussed in this subthread this particular stupid claim he made.
The jury instruction is highly relevant. Directly on point, even.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my
car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
What the RIAA lacks in smarts it makes up in ruthlessness.
How odd that they have never been stupid enough to try
that with those who copy a CD they own so they can use it
in their car, or have loaded an ipod with a CD that they own.
It's not odd at all.
1) The issue of damages, as I discussed above.
2) The issue of proof. Internet activity can be traced and documented
and proven via ISP records and server log files and the like. But if
you walk into a music store, buy a CD, and copy it to an iPod or to
another CD for your car, how would the RIAA ever find out that this
happened? And how could they prove it in court?
Or that it isnt illegal and they know it.
That's possible - but certainly cannot be concluded from the fact that
they haven't sued anyone, especially in light of the two factors I
outline above (and for which you have no response, I note)
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
As an attorney, those strike me as two very good reasons not to bring a lawsuit.
Pity about the real reason, that it isnt illegal.
How do you reconcile that assertion with the jury instruction in the
Thomas case?

"Each plaintiff claims in this case that the defendant violated its
exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute its copyrighted works. One
who either reproduces or distributes a copyrighted work during the term
of the copyright infringes the copyright, unless licensed by the
copyright owner."

See that part in the middle? One who reproduces a copyrighted work
infringes on the copyright, unless licensed.

So the only ways copying a CD for your car is not infringement are:
1) The work isn't copyrighted in the first place, or
2) The license allows you to make a copy for your car.

Otherwise, it is infringement. That, or the court was wrong and you're
right. I'll go with the former.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
So again, who cares whether the recording industry disagrees or not ?
How about anyone who wants to obey the law as a matter of principle.
And any of those with a clue will have noticed that since the recording
industry has never actually been stupid enough to go after anyone who
has made a copy of a CD that they own for use in their car, or have
loaded an ipod from a CD that they own, that given how aggressive the
RIAA is, that its a tad unlikely that either of those activitys are actually illegal.
Actually, those with a clue will know that just because they never sued
someone doesn't indicate one way or the other whether such activity is illegal.
It is very likely tho when ipods become so common.
What is likely? And iPods already are common, you know.
Post by Rod Speed
The industry hasnt even attempted to monster Apple into removing that
capability from iTunes, because they know very well that they would just
get a flea in their ear if they were ever actually stupid enough to try it.
Post by Larry
As Deadrat said, this is a tactical decision
With ipods becoming so common eh ? Yeah, right.
As common as they are, how can you prove it happened? I raised this
point above, and you failed to respond. It's fatal to your argument.
The RIAA can law enforcement can send subpoenas to Napster and companies
like that, or individual ISPs and trace who is copying music. How could
they ever prove that after you brought home a CD from the store you
copied it to your computer?

If you are going to continue to claim the only reason they don't sue
people is because it is legal, you have to answer these questions.
Otherwise, the difficulty (or even impossibility) of proving this must
necessarily be an alternative possibility.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
(for which I outlined reasons above why they might practically
choose not to sue, or are unable to prove the activity),
Pity about other stuff like what iTunes can do.
Post by Larry
and has no bearing on whether the activity is legal.
It is however MUCH more likely that the reason they dont do anything about it is
because they cant, because it isnt illegal to load an ipod from a CD that you own.
What makes you say it is MUCH more likely? How can you quantify the
liklihood? I presented an alternative theory - two actually - that are
at least as viable. For even if your theory is wrong and it is illegal,
they still wouldn't sue since it is 1) hard to prove, and 2) not much
they can recover in damages.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
In spades when they clearly dont bother to do anything
about what is done in huge numbers with ipods.
The industry hasnt even attempted to monster
Apple into not providing that capability in iTunes.
And the industry would get a flea in its ear if it was ever stupid
enough to try that anyway.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
however, they've never sued a consumer for this.
And there might just be a reason why they havent.
Hard to prove and little chance of recovery?
Or it isnt actually illegal.
So you say.
You in spades with the reverse.
Does this make sense to anyone? Anyone?
Hardly anyone bothers to read your shit.
How many of there are you between those ears? Hypocrite.
Post by Rod Speed
Just your bum chum deadrat.
What's with the repeated homosexual references? Do you have repressed
feelings or something? It's OK if you do, but it might explain why you
inject those ideas into an intellectual property discussion.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say.
Nope, completely trivial to say.
Oops! I "lied" again. You're right. Saying things is always easy.
And even someone as stupid as you has noticed that the recording
industry hasnt actually been stupid enough to try doing that.
What is strategically wise and tactically remunerative is different
from what the law says.
Easy to claim what the law purportedly says.
It sure is. Great insight. He claimed what the law says,
and there have been cites and quotes in this thread as well.
Not one of which actually supported that claim of his.
If you say so.

You strike me as one of those people who if someone reads your posts,
and does the exact opposite, they'd live their life quite well.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Can you outline what exactly you think he "lied" about
Already did.
Post by Larry
and what statutes show he is wrong?
HE made the claim.
HE gets to do that.
He gets to show he is wrong?
Post by Rod Speed
THATS how it works.
Really, that's how it works?
Post by Rod Speed
Here it is again in case you have got lost again
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my
car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
He said you can't legally copy a CD you buy. He cited a jury
instruction that says you can't copy copyrighted material without
license to do so, and there's no "for my car" exception. Since jury
instructions are based on statutes, and have been approved by courts, he
backed up his claim, albeit belatedly.

The ball's in your court. Refute the claim, if you can. Don't just say
its wrong with your hands covering your ears.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
I suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
You disagreed with him.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
I don't know what those things are. I do know I've forgotten more law
than you've ever known, and what I forgot is a small fraction of what I
still know.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
What's the basis for your disagreement? Case law? Statute? Other?
What's the basis for your disagreement? Case law? Statute? Other?
Again, responding to a question with a question, rather than answering
it. How childish.

Deadrat made a claim. He cited a jury instruction that supports the
claim. It also comports with what I learned in law school, but of
course I can't cite the class lecture for you.

You're the one disagreeing with his claim, so I will ask again what the
foundation of that disagreement is. Case law? Statute? Other?

Of course, you're perfectly free to think the current state of the law
is stupid and wrong and should be changed. But don't sit there and say
the current state of the law is something it isn't.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
The fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in
your favor;
And there is the tiny matter of what the law allows.
Post by richard
the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up.
Its completely irrelevant given what 17USC107 allows.
17USC107 defines fair use, which doesn't contemplate your convenience.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Go read 17USC107
That isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Giving that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Duh.
Tell it to richard.
No need.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
You cant ignore this very common copying.
This "very common copying" is in murky legal waters,
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
By virtue that there is no case law on the point,
and the statutes are ambiguous at best,
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Substantiate what, exactly? That there's no case law on point? You
agree with that precedent? Substantiate that the statutes are
ambiguous? I don't think they are - and Deadrat's cited jury
instruction seems clear to me - but based on the discussion and debate
in this thread, I threw you a bone and agreed it was murky.

If you want to know my honest opinion, the law is crystal clear and
you're blatantly wrong, without a rational reason in the world to make
the assertions you're making.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
it appears that "murky" is an accurate description.
Nope.
Post by Larry
If you think it is crystal clear,
Never ever said that.
Post by Larry
please explain why.
Just did.
So its not murky and its not clear. What is it, then? (Since you said
you just explained, but there's no explanation.)
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
not least because the RIAA has at times claimed that its clients
have given permission for this type of "format shifting" copying.
And, of course, I lied in my discusion by omitting the fact that
you may make copies when you're granted permission to do so.
So sorry.
See above on ending up completely blind.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
You lied.
Cant even manage its own lines, or anything else at all, either.
Post by Deadrat
This has nothing to do with cant.
Pathetic. When all else fails, try a spelling flame.
Damn! I just hate it when I have to explain things to
the literal minded. It just takes all the fun out of it.
Then do the decent thing and top yourself or sumfin.
Another sentence that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Substantiate that your sentence doesn't make any sense?

You really do like hearing yourself argue, doncha?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Remember those analogies on that test you took in the 8th grade?
Didnt happen.
Did you attend eighth grade?
Yep.
Have fun substantiating that claim.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Your complaining that I lied about what I discussed is on the
same level as my complaining that you posted the noun "cant"
when it's clear that you meant the contraction "can't."
Nope.
Nope? That's your response?
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
Post by Larry
Do you see how this actually supports the point Deadrat was making?
No it doesnt, and he wasnt even making a case either.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Get it?
Nothing to get.
Do you see how this actually supports the point Deadrat was making?
Record's stuck.
No - your thought process is, though.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Or do I need to type slower?
Just let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
And retake Bullshitting 101.
Do you see how this actually supports the point Deadrat was making?
Record's stuck.
Rod Speed
2008-06-04 00:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since
you've repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or
won't - read statutes. Can you cite me a "right"
given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Deadrat
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright.
There is more than just that particular right in law.
Post by Deadrat
If you play the original on your computer and the copy in your
car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
But its legal to do that.
Probably not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Oh, sorry. Quoting the USC not good enough for you?
You didnt do that.
Its been both quoted and cited in this thread.
But he didnt do that in this subthread.
So it was done,
Not by him. And what was quoted wasnt relevant to that stupid claim he made above.
Post by Larry
and you're upset he wasn't repetitive?
Nope.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Are you reading the same posts as the rest of us?
How many of you are there between those ears ?
Do you think I am the only person reading these posts?
Nope.
Post by Larry
Really?
Pathetic.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is copy-protected, then by the DMCA, definitely not.
Wrong, as always.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Oh, sorry. Explaining what the DMCA covers not good enough for you?
You didnt do that either.
The rest of us read the explanation.
Not in this subthread you didnt.
Post by Larry
Are you reading the same posts as the rest of us?
How many of you are there between those ears ?
Do you think I am the only person reading these posts?
Nope.
Post by Larry
Really?
Pathetic.
Post by Larry
You know, you have a habit of just mimicking the post you're responding to.
Corse you never ever ever do anything like that yourself, eh parasite ?
Post by Larry
Deadrat points out something you didn't do, so you claim he didn't do it either.
I point out that he didnt do it himself, actually.
Post by Larry
I ask you a question, and you ask me a question in response.
Corse you never ever ever do anything like that yourself, eh parasite ?
Post by Larry
It doesn't reflect well on your cognitive thinking skills.
You've never ever had anything like that.

Cant even manage to bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag either.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected and you're making
a copy only as backup protection (say, in case
your CD player eats your CD), then it's legal.
So you lied.
That's right. Anyone who says anything you disagree with must be a liar.
Nope, anyone who initially made that bald statement you made at the top,
and then later provided a small part of the real story, clearly lied initially.
See the end of this post.
Completely useless, as always.
What exactly have you added to the thread
What exactly have you added to the thread ?
More than you, and it ain't even close.
Easy to claim, parasite.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
(or subthread, as you call it)
Because that is what it is.
Post by Larry
with your last 2-3 posts?
You in spades, hypocrite.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
He couldn't just be wrong.
You didnt say that your initial statement was wrong.
If you don't understand the context of richard's whining, then just say so.
I didnt even comment on anything he said.
I JUST commented on that stupid lie of yours.
You know there is a difference between a lie and a mistake, right?
Yep, and since he keeps repeating that lie, it cant be a mistake.
So you define a lie as a mistake that is repeated over and over again?
Nope.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Not that its clear either one happened here, but wouldn't you agree that
"mistake" is more applicable to a wrong statement made by a layperson
in this discussion of what is legal and what isn't in the area of IP?
His bald statement clearly wasnt a mistake. Its a lie.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Among other things, richard wants to be able to copy his
CDs however and whenever he wants. He can't do so legally.
Irrelevant to that stupid lie of yours which wasnt even to richard.
You know who he was directing his comments to?
Even someone as stupid as you should be able to check the attributions if someone
was actually stupid enough to lend you a seeing eye dog and a white cane.
If I was blind, how would a cane or seeing-eye dog help me check attributions?
No one ever said it would.
Post by Larry
Moron.
Fuckwit parasite.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Are you inside his mind, or did he tell you?
Pathetic.
Your posts seem to be just that. Profound self-analysis.
Pathetic.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
He can probably do so with impunity.
He certainly can as long has he isnt actually stupid enough to do it in volume for money.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Or you.
I cant be wrong about that particular lie of yours.
Post by Deadrat
The question here is whether you can copy a CD and
have both copies available for listening at the same time.
And even someone as stupid as you should have noticed
that that happens all the time when the contents of CDs are
loaded onto an ipod using itunes which has that capability.
Again, the discussion with richard has nothing to do with ipods.
This subthread has nothing to do with richard at all.
Post by Deadrat
For every CD Richard plays on his computer, he
wants to have a copy that he can play in his car.
And making a separate copy for the car isnt legally any different
to loading it from the CD into an ipod so you can play that music
when it isnt convenient to play it from the original CD.
So he says, again without cite.
Just like you eh ?
You want me to cite the fact that you haven't provided cites?
Nope.
Post by Larry
You just like hearing yourself argue, don't you?
Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh parasite ?
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to do that, whatever you claim.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
The AHRA gives you a safe harbor for personal noncommercial
copying using a digital audio recording device.
Pity that an ipod isnt a digital audio recording device according to the AHRA.
Post by Deadrat
So I "lied" about that too.
Never ever said you lied about that.
Post by Deadrat
Happy, now?
Nope. It isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
By the way, the reason you have this safe harbor is that
you're considered to have paid royalties to buy the right
to copy when you bought the particular device or medium.
Pity about your original bald statement which
is clearly just plain wrong for that reason.
Post by Deadrat
Copies from your PC? Not so much.
Easy to claim.
I have. Your PC isn't a digital recording device.
Neither is an ipod.
No one claimed otherwise, have they?
Never said they did.
So why contribute that irrelevant, meaningless,
and uncontested nugget to this discussion?
Because its relevant to his lies that
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
which just happen to be what is being discussed in this particular subthread, parasite.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Thanks for clearing up this nonissue.
No thanks for that pathetic excuse for bullshit.
You're the one who introduced the irrelevant, meaningless, and uncontested issue into this discussion.
Only in your pathetic little drug crazed parasite fantasyland.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Just like the fun Jammie Thomas has had.
Now she was found liable for downloading,
And no one has been found liable when they
loaded their ipod from a CD they have purchased.
Post by Deadrat
but here's a jury instruction from her trial
<quote>
Each plaintiff claims in this case that the defendant
violated its exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute
its copyrighted works. One who either reproduces or
distributes a copyrighted work during the term of the
copyright infringes the copyright, unless licensed by the
copyright owner.
</quote>
See the words "reproduces" and "unless licensed"? Somehow missing
is any mention of personal use or non-commercial use or even ipods.
How odd that no one has been shafted for loading their ipod from a CD they own.
It's not odd at all. It's a cost-benefit analysis.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim given how popular ipods have become.
If you continued reading - and actually understood what
I wrote - you'd see the popularity of iPods is irrelevant.
Not to a cost benefit analysis they aint.
Post by Larry
In fact, it could backfire if they brought such a suit and lost,
Pigs might fly, too.
Post by Larry
and as I said below, there are huge problems proving the case.
Just because you said it, doesnt make it gospel, parasite.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
The RIAA would have to show actual damages to prevail on a claim.
Nope, not to bluff hordes of people into paying for downloads to
their ipods instead of just using iTunes to load the ipod from the
CD that they already own.
Sorry, bringing a lawsuit as a "bluff" makes for good TV, but is unethical.
Doesnt mean that it doesnt ever happen, parasite.
Post by Larry
Not to mention expensive if your bluff is called, as you'd not only lose, but you
could be liable for the other sides expenses if the case is deemed frivolous.
The RIAA clearly doesnt care about that risk.
Post by Larry
Oh, and there's also the fact that you could be estopped
from bringing the claim against others in the future.
Nope, not if the only problem is the evidence available and the
act of loading a CD that you own into your ipod is in fact illegal.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
What would be the damages in a given case? The price of a CD?
Irrelevant to bluffing hordes of people into paying for downloads to their ipods
instead of just using iTunes to load the ipod from the CD that they already own.
You think hordes of people would be bluffed if the RIAA
sued Joe Schmo in Des Moines for $12.99, the price of
a CD had he bought two instead of copying his?
Nope.
Post by Larry
If you'd cave in on that bluff, you're spineless.
Irrelevant to what plenty would do if the RIAA has won the case.

Hordes who do that currently do that because they believe that
its legal to copy a CD that you own into your own ipod, and if
the RIAA had won the case thats all that would matter to most
of them, not the quantum of the damages that that suit produced.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Even if you add punitive damages at, say, 10x the actual compensatory
damages, you're looking at a judgment of under $200. One hour of an
RIAA's attorney's time is worth more than that.
Irrelevant to bluffing hordes of people into paying for downloads to their ipods
instead of just using iTunes to load the ipod from the CD that they already own.
Okay, okay, I get it.
Nope, you never ever do.
Post by Larry
You think the legal and tactical obstacles are irrelevant to bluffing,
Nope.
Post by Larry
even though they're relevant to actually winning the case.
Nope.
Post by Larry
But think for a minute (you can think, can't you?)
No need to ask you if you could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag, the answer is obvious.
Post by Larry
what someone who was sued under this "bluff" would do.
They'd consult a lawyer.
Not necessarily, particularly if the RIAA was just demanding the cost of the CD.

Hardly anyone would pay some legal parasite vastly more than that.
Post by Larry
The lawyer would say "they got nothing, don't settle, fight this."
But you clowns have been claiming that they have a lot more than nothing.
Post by Larry
He might add "Let's countersue for wasting your time and harassing you without merit."
That bluff would be over before it began.
Not if that parasite believed that it is illegal to copy a CD that you own into your own ipod.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Its nothing like as black and white as you claim.
Black and white?
Yep, check the bald claim he made at the top with the ...... in it.
THATS what is actually being discussed in this particular subthread.
Post by Larry
He's the one who said it was uncertain since there isn't any case law on point, isn't he?
Nothing like that stupid claim he made that
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Why is it you think that you are allowed to make such a copy?
HE made that claim.

HE gets to spell that out.

THATS how it works.
Post by Larry
If it is such a stupid claim, you should be able to prove
it to be stupid in a matter of sentences, if not less.
HE made that claim.

HE gets to spell that out.

THATS how it works.
Post by Larry
(Note: I expect at least one cite to appear in those sentences).
You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelevant.

Your expectations in spades.
Go and fuck yourself. No please, thats an order.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
If the CD is not copy-protected, then you could claim fair use in
making a personal, non-commercial copy to listen to in the car.
And that claim is backed up by the fair use provisions of 17USC107
Post by richard
The recording industry would disagree;
Who cares ?
Presumably anyone who ends up as a defendant in an infringement suit.
Which you have previously said that that industry
has never been stupid enough to attempt.
You ask who would care. I told you.
You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelevant.
Actually, most people here in misc.legal (where are you from, misc.consumers,
I take it?) would tell you that whether you agree with him or not, Deadrat's
posts are almost always informative, well-reasoned, and on-point.
If you're gunna suck his dick, at least have the decency to do it in private.
He and I disagree about as much as we disagree.
Your problem.
Post by Larry
But it doesn't mean there isn't respect there.
If you're gunna suck his dick, at least have the decency to do it in private.
Post by Larry
If you mistake that for homosexual activity, you may
want to self-reflect on why you jump to that conclusion.
Let go of your own dick before you end up completely blind.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
The "industry" has been "stupid" enough to go after file sharers.
Irrelevant to whether they have ever been stupid enough to try
that with those who copy a CD they own so they can use it in
their car, or have loaded an ipod with a CD that they own.
Post by Deadrat
Ask Jammie Thomas if she cares.
She didnt just copy a CD that she owns so that she can use it in her car.
She's completely irrelevant to what is actually being discussed.
Only because her case undermines your point,
so you change the target and call it irrelevant.
Lying, as always.
Remember above how I said you always respond in kind?
I remember you lying, time after time after time.
Post by Larry
To a claim of no cites with a claim of no cites, to a question with a question? Well,
I forgot to add that calling your opponent a liar is also a popular response of yours.
I call a spade a spade and a lie a lie. You get to like that or lump it or stop lying.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Her case has no relevance what so ever to what is being
discussed in this subthread this particular stupid claim he made.
The jury instruction is highly relevant. Directly on point, even.
Not when she wasnt even charged with doing what was being discussed in this subthread it aint.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
What the RIAA lacks in smarts it makes up in ruthlessness.
How odd that they have never been stupid enough to try
that with those who copy a CD they own so they can use it
in their car, or have loaded an ipod with a CD that they own.
It's not odd at all.
1) The issue of damages, as I discussed above.
2) The issue of proof. Internet activity can be traced and
documented and proven via ISP records and server log files and the
like. But if you walk into a music store, buy a CD, and copy it to
an iPod or to another CD for your car, how would the RIAA ever find
out that this happened? And how could they prove it in court?
Or that it isnt illegal and they know it.
That's possible
It is indeed.
Post by Larry
- but certainly cannot be concluded from the fact that they haven't
sued anyone, especially in light of the two factors I outline above
No one ever said it could be.
Post by Larry
(and for which you have no response, I note)
You're lying, as always.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
As an attorney, those strike me as two very good reasons not to bring a lawsuit.
Pity about the real reason, that it isnt illegal.
How do you reconcile that assertion with the jury instruction in the Thomas case?
It has no relevance what so ever to what is actually being discussed in this particular subthread.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
"Each plaintiff claims in this case that the defendant violated its
exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute its copyrighted works.
One who either reproduces or distributes a copyrighted work during
the term of the copyright infringes the copyright, unless licensed by
the copyright owner."
See that part in the middle?
Pity about what happens every time that someone
loads a CD that they own into their ipod.
Post by Larry
One who reproduces a copyrighted work infringes on the copyright, unless licensed.
Pity about what happens every time that someone
loads a CD that they own into their ipod.
Post by Larry
1) The work isn't copyrighted in the first place, or
2) The license allows you to make a copy for your car.
Funny about that last.
Post by Larry
Otherwise, it is infringement.
You aint established any otherwise.
Post by Larry
That, or the court was wrong and you're right.
Or you couldnt bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.
Post by Larry
I'll go with the former.
You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelevant.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
So again, who cares whether the recording industry disagrees or not ?
How about anyone who wants to obey the law as a matter of principle.
And any of those with a clue will have noticed that since the
recording industry has never actually been stupid enough to
go after anyone who has made a copy of a CD that they own
for use in their car, or have loaded an ipod from a CD that they
own, that given how aggressive the RIAA is, that its a tad
unlikely that either of those activitys are actually illegal.
Actually, those with a clue will know that just because they never sued
someone doesn't indicate one way or the other whether such activity is illegal.
It is very likely tho when ipods become so common.
What is likely?
That is aint illegal, stupid.

In spades when they dont even bother with treatening
letters and demands to pay for whats in an ipod.
Post by Larry
And iPods already are common, you know.
Pathetic.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
The industry hasnt even attempted to monster Apple into removing that
capability from iTunes, because they know very well that they would just
get a flea in their ear if they were ever actually stupid enough to try it.
Post by Larry
As Deadrat said, this is a tactical decision
With ipods becoming so common eh ? Yeah, right.
As common as they are, how can you prove it happened?
You dont need any proof if you're just sending them a letter of demand.
Post by Larry
I raised this point above, and you failed to respond.
You're lying, as always.
Post by Larry
It's fatal to your argument.
Nope.
Post by Larry
The RIAA can law enforcement can send subpoenas to Napster and
companies like that, or individual ISPs and trace who is copying music.
How could they ever prove that after you brought home a CD
from the store you copied it to your computer?
You dont need any proof if you're just sending them a letter of demand.
Post by Larry
If you are going to continue to claim the only reason
they don't sue people is because it is legal,
Never ever said anything like that.
Post by Larry
you have to answer these questions.
Nope.
Post by Larry
Otherwise, the difficulty (or even impossibility) of proving
this must necessarily be an alternative possibility.
Nope, not when you dont need any proof if you're just sending them a letter of demand.

Even you should have noticed that the RIAA hasnt even been stupid enough to try that.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
(for which I outlined reasons above why they might practically
choose not to sue, or are unable to prove the activity),
Pity about other stuff like what iTunes can do.
Post by Larry
and has no bearing on whether the activity is legal.
It is however MUCH more likely that the reason they dont do anything about it is
because they cant, because it isnt illegal to load an ipod from a CD that you own.
What makes you say it is MUCH more likely?
Because they havent even bothered to send out any letters of demand.
Post by Larry
How can you quantify the liklihood?
Dont need to.
Post by Larry
I presented an alternative theory - two actually - that are at least as viable.
Wrong, as always. In spades with letters of demand.
Post by Larry
For even if your theory is wrong and it is illegal, they still wouldn't sue
since it is 1) hard to prove, and 2) not much they can recover in damages.
But neither of those apply to letters of demand and the RIAA hasnt even
bothered to go that route, so its MUCH more likely that they realise it aint illegal.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
In spades when they clearly dont bother to do anything
about what is done in huge numbers with ipods.
The industry hasnt even attempted to monster
Apple into not providing that capability in iTunes.
And the industry would get a flea in its ear if it was ever
stupid enough to try that anyway.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
however, they've never sued a consumer for this.
And there might just be a reason why they havent.
Hard to prove and little chance of recovery?
Or it isnt actually illegal.
So you say.
You in spades with the reverse.
Does this make sense to anyone? Anyone?
Hardly anyone bothers to read your shit.
How many of there are you between those ears? Hypocrite.
Cant even manage its own lines. No surprise that the best it can manage is legal parasite.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Just your bum chum deadrat.
What's with the repeated homosexual references?
Just rubbing your nose in your problem, parasite.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Would you win a copyright infringement suit? Hard to say.
Nope, completely trivial to say.
Oops! I "lied" again. You're right. Saying things is always easy.
And even someone as stupid as you has noticed that the recording
industry hasnt actually been stupid enough to try doing that.
What is strategically wise and tactically remunerative is
different from what the law says.
Easy to claim what the law purportedly says.
It sure is. Great insight. He claimed what the law says,
and there have been cites and quotes in this thread as well.
Not one of which actually supported that claim of his.
If you say so.
I do indeed.
Post by Larry
You strike me as one of those people who if someone reads your
posts, and does the exact opposite, they'd live their life quite well.
Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

No surprise that the best it can manage is legal parasite.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Can you outline what exactly you think he "lied" about
Already did.
Post by Larry
and what statutes show he is wrong?
HE made the claim.
HE gets to do that.
He gets to show he is wrong?
He gets to cite the statutes that support his claim, fuckwit.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
THATS how it works.
Really, that's how it works?
Pathetic.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Here it is again in case you have got lost again
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
He said you can't legally copy a CD you buy.
And he cant explain why the industry hasnt bothered to do anything
about those who copy a CD that they own into their own ipod.

The industry hasnt even proclaimed that its illegal to do that.
Post by Larry
He cited a jury instruction that says you can't copy copyrighted material
without license to do so, and there's no "for my car" exception.
And he cant explain why the industry hasnt bothered to do anything
about those who copy a CD that they own into their own ipod.

The industry hasnt even proclaimed that its illegal to do that.
Post by Larry
Since jury instructions are based on statutes, and have been
approved by courts, he backed up his claim, albeit belatedly.
And he cant explain why the industry hasnt bothered to do anything
about those who copy a CD that they own into their own ipod.

The industry hasnt even proclaimed that its illegal to do that.
Post by Larry
The ball's in your court.
Nope, its still in his.
Post by Larry
Refute the claim, if you can.
Go and fuck yourself, again.
Post by Larry
Don't just say its wrong with your hands covering your ears.
Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed parasite fantasys.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
I suppose it would depend on how many copiers ended up on the jury.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
You disagreed with him.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
I don't know what those things are.
Your problem.
Post by Larry
I do know I've forgotten more law than you've ever known,
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Post by Larry
and what I forgot is a small fraction of what I still know.
You problem.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
What's the basis for your disagreement? Case law? Statute? Other?
What's the basis for your disagreement? Case law? Statute? Other?
Again, responding to a question with a question, rather than answering it.
Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh parasite
Post by Larry
How childish.
Yep, thats your problem.
Post by Larry
Deadrat made a claim.
And he cant explain why the industry hasnt bothered to do anything
about those who copy a CD that they own into their own ipod.

The industry hasnt even proclaimed that its illegal to do that.
Post by Larry
He cited a jury instruction that supports the claim.
And he cant explain why the industry hasnt bothered to do anything
about those who copy a CD that they own into their own ipod.

The industry hasnt even proclaimed that its illegal to do that.
Post by Larry
It also comports with what I learned in law school,
but of course I can't cite the class lecture for you.
And you cant explain why the industry hasnt bothered to do anything
about those who copy a CD that they own into their own ipod.

The industry hasnt even proclaimed that its illegal to do that.
Post by Larry
You're the one disagreeing with his claim,
So does the industry when it hasnt bothered to do anything
about those who copy a CD that they own into their own ipod.

The industry hasnt even proclaimed that its illegal to do that.
Post by Larry
so I will ask again what the foundation of that disagreement is. Case law? Statute? Other?
Other. The tiny matter that the industry hasnt bothered to do anything
about those who copy a CD that they own into their own ipod.

The industry hasnt even proclaimed that its illegal to do that.
Post by Larry
Of course, you're perfectly free to think the current state
of the law is stupid and wrong and should be changed.
And I'm perfectly free to notice that the industry hasnt bothered to do
anything about those who copy a CD that they own into their own ipod.

The industry hasnt even proclaimed that its illegal to do that.
Post by Larry
But don't sit there and say the current state of the law is something it isn't.
Go tell the industry.

Dont be too surprised when they laugh in your face.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
The fact that the purpose in personal and non-commerical counts in your favor;
And there is the tiny matter of what the law allows.
Post by richard
the fact that you've copied the whole thing counts against you.
Nope.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Whether you're affecting the commercial viability is a toss up.
Its completely irrelevant given what 17USC107 allows.
17USC107 defines fair use, which doesn't contemplate your convenience.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
... he explained.
Just like you didnt.
Post by Deadrat
Go read 17USC107
That isnt relevant to what is being discussed.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Giving that copy to a friend is definitely illegal.
Duh.
Tell it to richard.
No need.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by richard
Post by Rod Speed
And its legal to have a copy in your ipod and to not use the CD too.
You cant ignore this very common copying.
This "very common copying" is in murky legal waters,
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
By virtue that there is no case law on the point,
and the statutes are ambiguous at best,
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Substantiate what, exactly?
It should be obvious even to someone as stupid as you what was being claimed there.
Post by Larry
That there's no case law on point? You agree with that precedent?
Substantiate that the statutes are ambiguous? I don't think they are
Then why did you say that they were ?
Post by Larry
- and Deadrat's cited jury instruction seems clear to me
Pity it aint relevant to what is being discussed in this subthread.
Post by Larry
- but based on the discussion and debate in this
thread, I threw you a bone and agreed it was murky.
So you're just another pathetic excuse for a troll eh ?
Post by Larry
If you want to know my honest opinion, the law is crystal clear
Then you are clearly a pathological liar.
Post by Larry
and you're blatantly wrong,
The entire industry too eh ?
Post by Larry
without a rational reason in the world to make the assertions you're making.
HE made that claims.

HE gets to do that.

THATS how it works.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
it appears that "murky" is an accurate description.
Nope.
Post by Larry
If you think it is crystal clear,
Never ever said that.
Post by Larry
please explain why.
Just did.
So its not murky and its not clear. What is it, then?
The real world aint binary.
Post by Larry
(Since you said you just explained, but there's no explanation.)
You're lying, as always.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
not least because the RIAA has at times claimed that its clients
have given permission for this type of "format shifting" copying.
And, of course, I lied in my discusion by omitting the fact that
you may make copies when you're granted permission to do so.
So sorry.
See above on ending up completely blind.
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
You lied.
Cant even manage its own lines, or anything else at all, either.
Post by Deadrat
This has nothing to do with cant.
Pathetic. When all else fails, try a spelling flame.
Damn! I just hate it when I have to explain things to
the literal minded. It just takes all the fun out of it.
Then do the decent thing and top yourself or sumfin.
Another sentence that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
Substantiate that your sentence doesn't make any sense?
You really do like hearing yourself argue, doncha?
Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh parasite ?
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Remember those analogies on that test you took in the 8th grade?
Didnt happen.
Did you attend eighth grade?
Yep.
Have fun substantiating that claim.
Cant even manage its own lines, or anything else at all either.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Your complaining that I lied about what I discussed is on the
same level as my complaining that you posted the noun "cant"
when it's clear that you meant the contraction "can't."
Nope.
Nope? That's your response?
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
Post by Larry
Do you see how this actually supports the point Deadrat was making?
No it doesnt, and he wasnt even making a case either.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Get it?
Nothing to get.
Do you see how this actually supports the point Deadrat was making?
Record's stuck.
No - your thought process is, though.
Pathetic.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Or do I need to type slower?
Just let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
And retake Bullshitting 101.
Do you see how this actually supports the point Deadrat was making?
Record's stuck.
Deadrat
2008-06-04 01:40:33 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Actually, most people here in misc.legal (where are you from,
misc.consumers, I take it?) would tell you that whether you agree
with him or not, Deadrat's posts are almost always informative,
well-reasoned, and on-point.
If you're gunna suck his dick, at least have the decency to do it in private.
He and I disagree about as much as we disagree.
Your problem.
Post by Larry
But it doesn't mean there isn't respect there.
If you're gunna suck his dick, at least have the decency to do it in private.
Post by Larry
If you mistake that for homosexual activity, you may
want to self-reflect on why you jump to that conclusion.
Let go of your own dick before you end up completely blind.
I have noticed a number of "dick" references in your otherwise, er,
"lucid" posts. Are you suffering from some sort of underlying sexual
anxiety? Of course, I have no way of knowing for sure, but it's odd that
penises, masturbation, and male fellatio would be part of a discussion on
copyright.

People who rsearch human sexual behavior tell us that it's a common and
normal activity. Their studies show that most people masturbate,
although the researchers don't say how many do so while considering
17USC106 and 17USC107.

Who told you that touching your penis would make you go blind? Mommy?
Your priest? Perhaps they taught sex education in your school district
in the 8th grade or beyond. That would explain it.

<snip>
Rod Speed
2008-06-04 02:19:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Actually, most people here in misc.legal (where are you from,
misc.consumers, I take it?) would tell you that whether you agree
with him or not, Deadrat's posts are almost always informative,
well-reasoned, and on-point.
If you're gunna suck his dick, at least have the decency to do it in private.
He and I disagree about as much as we disagree.
Your problem.
Post by Larry
But it doesn't mean there isn't respect there.
If you're gunna suck his dick, at least have the decency to do it in private.
Post by Larry
If you mistake that for homosexual activity, you may
want to self-reflect on why you jump to that conclusion.
Let go of your own dick before you end up completely blind.
I have noticed a number of "dick" references in your otherwise, er, "lucid" posts.
Must be one of those rocket scientist pathetic excuses for a lying bullshit artists.

<reams of your puerile shit any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed where it belongs>
Larry
2008-06-04 02:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
<I began responding to Rod's personal attacks and irrelevant comments,
but ended up just snipping everything that wasn't substantively on
topic.... which is why this post is so short>
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
How odd that no one has been shafted for loading their ipod from a CD they own.
It's not odd at all. It's a cost-benefit analysis.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim given how
popular ipods have become.
If you continued reading - and actually understood what
I wrote - you'd see the popularity of iPods is irrelevant.
Not to a cost benefit analysis they aint.
Post by Larry
In fact, it could backfire if they brought such a suit and lost,
Pigs might fly, too.
I thought your entire point was that copying a CD to play in your car or
to have on your computer was legal.

But now when I say that the RIAA might lose a suit where they claim
otherwise, you say that "pigs might fly," which is a colloquialism that
represents the idea that the original notion was far-fetched and
implausible. So if you're right, why is it so implausible that the RIAA
would lose a case? Do you even understand your own argument, troll?

Deadrat, do you believe this fool?


<snip>
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
and as I said below, there are huge problems proving the case.
Just because you said it, doesnt make it gospel, parasite.
So stop calling me a parasite and explain how such a case could be
proven. Try to think for a change.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
The RIAA would have to show actual damages to prevail on a claim.
Nope, not to bluff hordes of people into paying for downloads to
their ipods instead of just using iTunes to load the ipod from the
CD that they already own.
Sorry, bringing a lawsuit as a "bluff" makes for good TV, but is unethical.
Doesnt mean that it doesnt ever happen, parasite.
Post by Larry
Not to mention expensive if your bluff is called, as you'd not only lose, but you
could be liable for the other sides expenses if the case is deemed frivolous.
The RIAA clearly doesnt care about that risk.
Why is this so clear? They haven't sued anyone, and unless you know
their discussions with their lawyers, you don't know if this was a
consideration or not.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Oh, and there's also the fact that you could be estopped
from bringing the claim against others in the future.
Nope, not if the only problem is the evidence available and the
act of loading a CD that you own into your ipod is in fact illegal.
Right, if the act of loading a CD onto your iPod is illegal. But you
say it is legal. If a judge says that, estoppel would apply.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
What would be the damages in a given case? The price of a CD?
Irrelevant to bluffing hordes of people into paying for downloads to their ipods
instead of just using iTunes to load the ipod from the CD that they already own.
You think hordes of people would be bluffed if the RIAA
sued Joe Schmo in Des Moines for $12.99, the price of
a CD had he bought two instead of copying his?
Nope.
Then why do you say they'd sue people as a bluff? You really should
take this debate off-line and just argue with yourself. You're all over
the map!
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
If you'd cave in on that bluff, you're spineless.
Irrelevant to what plenty would do if the RIAA has won the case.
But isn't your entire premise that the RIAA would not win such a case?
Besides, if they did win the case, it wouldn't be a bluff, now would it?


<snip>
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
You think the legal and tactical obstacles are irrelevant to bluffing,
Nope.
Post by Larry
even though they're relevant to actually winning the case.
Nope.
You're saying that legal and tactical obstacles are not relevant to
winning a case?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
But think for a minute (you can think, can't you?)
No
I didn't think so.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
what someone who was sued under this "bluff" would do.
They'd consult a lawyer.
Not necessarily, particularly if the RIAA was just demanding the cost of the CD.
Hardly anyone would pay some legal parasite vastly more than that.
Post by Larry
The lawyer would say "they got nothing, don't settle, fight this."
But you clowns have been claiming that they have a lot more than nothing.
If they have more than nothing, its not a bluff. Pick a side of the
argument, for cryin' out loud!



<snip>
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Why is it you think that you are allowed to make such a copy?
HE made that claim.
HE gets to spell that out.
THATS how it works.
Post by Larry
If it is such a stupid claim, you should be able to prove
it to be stupid in a matter of sentences, if not less.
HE made that claim.
HE gets to spell that out.
THATS how it works.
Post by Larry
(Note: I expect at least one cite to appear in those sentences).
You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelevant.
Your expectations in spades.
Go and fuck yourself. No please, thats an order.
That's neither an explanation, nor did it contain any citations. I'm
underwhelmed by the quality of your argument.

Face it: I called your bluff, and you folded. Deadrat said it is
illegal to copy a CD to use in your car without permission from the
copyright holder. He provided a federal jury instruction that says the
same thing. You respond by calling me irrelevant. (Which in the world
of intellectual property law, I am. Then again, so are you. We're just
having a discussion here. At least I am. You're insulting others and
avoiding the issue.)


<snip>
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
The jury instruction is highly relevant. Directly on point, even.
Not when she wasnt even charged with doing what was being discussed in this
subthread it aint.
She was charged with copyright infringement, which is what we're
discussing.


<snip>
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
1) The issue of damages, as I discussed above.
2) The issue of proof. Internet activity can be traced and
documented and proven via ISP records and server log files and the
like. But if you walk into a music store, buy a CD, and copy it to
an iPod or to another CD for your car, how would the RIAA ever find
out that this happened? And how could they prove it in court?
Or that it isnt illegal and they know it.
That's possible
It is indeed.
Post by Larry
- but certainly cannot be concluded from the fact that they haven't
sued anyone, especially in light of the two factors I outline above
No one ever said it could be.
Post by Larry
(and for which you have no response, I note)
You're lying, as always.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
As an attorney, those strike me as two very good reasons not to bring a lawsuit.
Pity about the real reason, that it isnt illegal.
How do you reconcile that assertion with the jury instruction in the Thomas case?
It has no relevance what so ever to what is actually being discussed in this
particular subthread.
We're discussing copyright infringement. What are you discussing?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my
car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought,
period.
"Each plaintiff claims in this case that the defendant violated its
exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute its copyrighted works.
One who either reproduces or distributes a copyrighted work during
the term of the copyright infringes the copyright, unless licensed by
the copyright owner."
See that part in the middle?
Pity about what happens every time that someone
loads a CD that they own into their ipod.
So you admit this is what happens when someone loads a CD into their
iPod? Decide what side of the debate you're on, you're a moving target!
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
One who reproduces a copyrighted work infringes on the copyright, unless licensed.
Pity about what happens every time that someone
loads a CD that they own into their ipod.
So you admit this is what happens when someone loads a CD into their
iPod? Decide what side of the debate you're on, you're a moving target!
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
1) The work isn't copyrighted in the first place, or
2) The license allows you to make a copy for your car.
Funny about that last.
Is that what you're hanging your hat on? If so, provide proof that the
license you receive when you by a commercial CD allows this. If it
does, then you're allowed to copy that CD to your iPod. If not, you're
not.


<snip>
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
As Deadrat said, this is a tactical decision
With ipods becoming so common eh ? Yeah, right.
As common as they are, how can you prove it happened?
You dont need any proof if you're just sending them a letter of demand.
You sure do. How do you know who to send the letter to? How do you
know what CD(s) they may have copied? You need some proof that someone
did something.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
The RIAA can law enforcement can send subpoenas to Napster and
companies like that, or individual ISPs and trace who is copying music.
How could they ever prove that after you brought home a CD
from the store you copied it to your computer?
You dont need any proof if you're just sending them a letter of demand.
You sure do. How do you know who to send the letter to? How do you
know what CD(s) they may have copied? You need some proof that someone
did something.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Otherwise, the difficulty (or even impossibility) of proving
this must necessarily be an alternative possibility.
Nope, not when you dont need any proof if you're just sending them a letter of demand.
You sure do. How do you know who to send the letter to? How do you
know what CD(s) they may have copied? You need some proof that someone
did something.>


<snip>
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
He cited a jury instruction that says you can't copy copyrighted material
without license to do so, and there's no "for my car" exception.
And he cant explain why the industry hasnt bothered to do anything
about those who copy a CD that they own into their own ipod.
I've explained why. I've given you two reasons. Proof and damages.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
The ball's in your court.
Nope, its still in his.
Post by Larry
Refute the claim, if you can.
Go and fuck yourself, again.
Profanity is so much easier than supporting a wild, unfounded claim,
isn't it?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
so I will ask again what the foundation of that disagreement is. Case law?
Statute? Other?
Other. The tiny matter that the industry hasnt bothered to do anything
about those who copy a CD that they own into their own ipod.
At least you admit there is no basis in the law for your position. Now
we're getting somewhere!
Post by Rod Speed
The industry hasnt even proclaimed that its illegal to do that.
The industry gets to proclaim what is illegal and what isn't? That's
hysterical.



<snip>
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
No - your thought process is
Pathetic.
It wasn't a fill-in-the-blank, but thanks for doing so.
Rod Speed
2008-06-04 03:00:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Scout writes
<I began responding to Rod's personal attacks and irrelevant comments,
Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh parasite ?
Post by Larry
but ended up just snipping everything that wasn't substantively on topic....
We'll see what else that is on topic got lost as well, wont we...
Post by Larry
which is why this post is so short>
You clearly wouldnt know what a short post was if on bit you on your parasite lard arse.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Just like the fun Jammie Thomas has had.
Now she was found liable for downloading,
And no one has been found liable when they
loaded their ipod from a CD they have purchased.
Post by Deadrat
but here's a jury instruction from her trial
<quote>
Each plaintiff claims in this case that the defendant
violated its exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute
its copyrighted works. One who either reproduces or
distributes a copyrighted work during the term of the
copyright infringes the copyright, unless licensed by the
copyright owner.
</quote>
See the words "reproduces" and "unless licensed"? Somehow missing
is any mention of personal use or non-commercial use or even ipods.
How odd that no one has been shafted for loading their ipod from a CD they own.
It's not odd at all. It's a cost-benefit analysis.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating
that claim given how popular ipods have become.
If you continued reading - and actually understood what
I wrote - you'd see the popularity of iPods is irrelevant.
Not to a cost benefit analysis they aint.
Post by Larry
In fact, it could backfire if they brought such a suit and lost,
Pigs might fly, too.
I thought your entire point was that copying a CD to
play in your car or to have on your computer was legal.
Nope.
Post by Larry
But now when I say that the RIAA might lose a suit
where they claim otherwise, you say that "pigs might fly,"
I didnt say that about that particular claim, liar.
Post by Larry
which is a colloquialism that represents the idea that
the original notion was far-fetched and implausible.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist parasites ?
Post by Larry
So if you're right, why is it so implausible that the RIAA would lose a case?
Never ever said that.
Post by Larry
Do you even understand your own argument, troll?
You clearly cant even manage to read and comprehend
what was written using single syllable words.
Post by Larry
Deadrat, do you believe this fool?
If you're gunna suck his dick again, atleast have the decency to do that in private.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
and as I said below, there are huge problems proving the case.
Just because you said it, doesnt make it gospel, parasite.
So stop calling me a parasite
I call a spade a spade and a parasite a parasite, parasite.
Post by Larry
and explain how such a case could be proven.
Taint relevant when the RIAA doesnt even bother to tell the general public
that its illegal to load the CD they own onto their own ipod, parasite.
Post by Larry
Try to think for a change.
Pathetic.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
The RIAA would have to show actual damages to prevail on a claim.
Nope, not to bluff hordes of people into paying for downloads to
their ipods instead of just using iTunes to load the ipod from the
CD that they already own.
Sorry, bringing a lawsuit as a "bluff" makes for good TV, but is unethical.
Doesnt mean that it doesnt ever happen, parasite.
Post by Larry
Not to mention expensive if your bluff is called, as you'd not only lose, but you
could be liable for the other sides expenses if the case is deemed frivolous.
The RIAA clearly doesnt care about that risk.
Why is this so clear?
Because of their actions, parasite.
Post by Larry
They haven't sued anyone,
They have sued plenty who have actually done something illegal.
Post by Larry
and unless you know their discussions with their lawyers,
you don't know if this was a consideration or not.
That aint the only way to be clear on that, parasite.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Oh, and there's also the fact that you could be estopped
from bringing the claim against others in the future.
Nope, not if the only problem is the evidence available and the
act of loading a CD that you own into your ipod is in fact illegal.
Right, if the act of loading a CD onto your iPod is illegal. But
you say it is legal. If a judge says that, estoppel would apply.
Nope, not because particular EVIDENCE doesnt turn out to be good enough.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
What would be the damages in a given case? The price of a CD?
Irrelevant to bluffing hordes of people into paying for downloads to their ipods
instead of just using iTunes to load the ipod from the CD that they already own.
You think hordes of people would be bluffed if the RIAA
sued Joe Schmo in Des Moines for $12.99, the price of
a CD had he bought two instead of copying his?
Nope.
Then why do you say they'd sue people as a bluff?
I never ever said they would.
Post by Larry
You really should take this debate off-line and
just argue with yourself. You're all over the map!
You cant even manage to work out what was actually
said even words of only one syllable are used.

No surprise that the best you can manage is parasite.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
If you'd cave in on that bluff, you're spineless.
Irrelevant to what plenty would do if the RIAA has won the case.
But isn't your entire premise that the RIAA would not win such a case?
Nope. I've ACTUALLY said that they arent stupid enough to
even attempt any suit because they know damned well that
copying a CD that you own to your own ipod isnt illegal.

AND that they dont even bother to tell the general public that doing that is illegal either.
Post by Larry
Besides, if they did win the case, it wouldn't be a bluff, now would it?
Pathetic.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
You think the legal and tactical obstacles are irrelevant to bluffing,
Nope.
Post by Larry
even though they're relevant to actually winning the case.
Nope.
You're saying that legal and tactical obstacles are not relevant to winning a case?
Nope, not saying anything even remotely resembling anything like that.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
But think for a minute (you can think, can't you?)
No
I didn't think so.
Pathetic.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
what someone who was sued under this "bluff" would do.
They'd consult a lawyer.
Not necessarily, particularly if the RIAA was just demanding the cost of the CD.
Hardly anyone would pay some legal parasite vastly more than that.
Post by Larry
The lawyer would say "they got nothing, don't settle, fight this."
But you clowns have been claiming that they have a lot more than nothing.
If they have more than nothing, its not a bluff.
Never ever said it was.
Post by Larry
Pick a side of the argument, for cryin' out loud!
You're the one so stupid that you cant manage to comprehend what
has been said even when words of only one syllable are used.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Why is it you think that you are allowed to make such a copy?
HE made that claim.
HE gets to spell that out.
THATS how it works.
Post by Larry
If it is such a stupid claim, you should be able to prove
it to be stupid in a matter of sentences, if not less.
HE made that claim.
HE gets to spell that out.
THATS how it works.
Post by Larry
(Note: I expect at least one cite to appear in those sentences).
You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelevant.
Your expectations in spades.
Go and fuck yourself. No please, thats an order.
That's neither an explanation, nor did it contain any citations.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist fuckwit parasites ?
Post by Larry
I'm underwhelmed by the quality of your argument.
You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly irrelevant.
Post by Larry
Face it: I called your bluff, and you folded.
Lying, as always.
Post by Larry
Deadrat said it is illegal to copy a CD to use in
your car without permission from the copyright holder.
He ACTUALLY said
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
liar.
Post by Larry
He provided a federal jury instruction that says the same thing.
You're lying, as always.
Post by Larry
You respond by calling me irrelevant.
You're lying, as always.
Post by Larry
(Which in the world of intellectual property law, I am.
So that was entirely accurate, you pathetic excuse for a lying bullshit artist.
Post by Larry
Then again, so are you.
Nope.
Post by Larry
We're just having a discussion here. At least I am.
You're lying, as always.
Post by Larry
You're insulting others and avoiding the issue.)
Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh parasite ?
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
The jury instruction is highly relevant. Directly on point, even.
Not when she wasnt even charged with doing
what was being discussed in this subthread it aint.
She was charged with copyright infringement, which is what we're discussing.
Not in this subthread it aint. We are ACTUALLY discussing this stupid claim that
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
and what some jury may or may not have been instructed has absolutely
NO relevance what so ever to those two stupid claims of his just above.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
1) The issue of damages, as I discussed above.
2) The issue of proof. Internet activity can be traced and
documented and proven via ISP records and server log files and the
like. But if you walk into a music store, buy a CD, and copy itto
an iPod or to another CD for your car, how would the RIAA ever
find out that this happened? And how could they prove it in court?
Or that it isnt illegal and they know it.
That's possible
It is indeed.
Post by Larry
- but certainly cannot be concluded from the fact that they haven't
sued anyone, especially in light of the two factors I outline above
No one ever said it could be.
Post by Larry
(and for which you have no response, I note)
You're lying, as always.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
As an attorney, those strike me as two very good reasons not to bring a lawsuit.
Pity about the real reason, that it isnt illegal.
How do you reconcile that assertion with the jury instruction in the Thomas case?
It has no relevance what so ever to what is actually being discussed in this particular subthread.
We're discussing copyright infringement.
Not in this subthread we aint.
Post by Larry
What are you discussing?
These two stupid claims that the dead rat made,
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
"Each plaintiff claims in this case that the defendant violated its
exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute its copyrighted works.
One who either reproduces or distributes a copyrighted work during
the term of the copyright infringes the copyright, unless licensed
by the copyright owner."
See that part in the middle?
Pity about what happens every time that someone loads a CD that they own into their ipod.
So you admit this is what happens when someone loads a CD into their iPod?
Doesnt mean that that is illegal.
Post by Larry
Decide what side of the debate you're on, you're a moving target!
You wouldnt know what a target was if it bit you on your parasite lard arse.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
One who reproduces a copyrighted work infringes on the copyright, unless licensed.
Pity about what happens every time that someone loads a CD that they own into their ipod.
So you admit this is what happens when someone loads a CD into their iPod?
Doesnt mean that that is illegal.
Post by Larry
Decide what side of the debate you're on, you're a moving target!
You wouldnt know what a target was if it bit you on your parasite lard arse.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
1) The work isn't copyrighted in the first place, or
2) The license allows you to make a copy for your car.
Funny about that last.
Is that what you're hanging your hat on?
Nope.
Post by Larry
If so, provide proof that the license you receive when you by a commercial CD allows this.
HE made those two stupid claims.

HE gets to do the proving.

THATS how it works, parasite.
Post by Larry
If it does, then you're allowed to copy that CD to your iPod. If not, you're not.
And when even the RIAA doesnt even bother to tell the general public that its illegal
to load the CD you own onto your own ipod, even someone as stupid as you should
be able to grasp that its a tad unlikely that even the RIAA considers that to be illegal.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
As Deadrat said, this is a tactical decision
With ipods becoming so common eh ? Yeah, right.
As common as they are, how can you prove it happened?
You dont need any proof if you're just sending them a letter of demand.
You sure do.
Nope.
Post by Larry
How do you know who to send the letter to?
How do you know what CD(s) they may have copied?
You need some proof that someone did something.
Nope, just some evidence, nothing like proof.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
The RIAA can law enforcement can send subpoenas to Napster
and companies like that, or individual ISPs and trace who is
copying music. How could they ever prove that after you brought
home a CD from the store you copied it to your computer?
You dont need any proof if you're just sending them a letter of demand.
You sure do.
Nope.
Post by Larry
How do you know who to send the letter to?
How do you know what CD(s) they may have copied?
You need some proof that someone did something.
Nope, just some evidence, nothing like proof.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Otherwise, the difficulty (or even impossibility) of proving
this must necessarily be an alternative possibility.
Nope, not when you dont need any proof if you're just sending them a letter of demand.
You sure do.
Nope.
Post by Larry
How do you know who to send the letter to?
How do you know what CD(s) they may have copied?
You need some proof that someone did something.
Nope, just some evidence, nothing like proof.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
He cited a jury instruction that says you can't copy copyrighted material
without license to do so, and there's no "for my car" exception.
And he cant explain why the industry hasnt bothered to do anything
about those who copy a CD that they own into their own ipod.
I've explained why.
Nope, you've actually CLAIMED why, a different matter entirely.
Post by Larry
I've given you two reasons. Proof and damages.
Pity that the RIAA hasnt even bothered to proclaim to the general public that doing that is illegal.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
The ball's in your court.
Nope, its still in his.
Post by Larry
Refute the claim, if you can.
Go and fuck yourself, again.
Profanity is so much easier than supporting a wild, unfounded claim, isn't it?
HE made those two stupid claims.

HE gets to support those wild unfounded claims.

THATS how it works, parasite.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
so I will ask again what the foundation of that disagreement is.
Case law? Statute? Other?
Other. The tiny matter that the industry hasnt bothered to do anything
about those who copy a CD that they own into their own ipod.
At least you admit there is no basis in the law for your position.
You're lying, as always.
Post by Larry
Now we're getting somewhere!
Only in your pathetic little drug crazed lying parasite fantasyland.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
The industry hasnt even proclaimed that its illegal to do that.
The industry gets to proclaim what is illegal and what isn't?
Corse they do. Doesnt mean that that determines what the is actually illegal tho.
Post by Larry
That's hysterical.
Thats pathetic, as always.
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
No - your thought process is
Pathetic.
It wasn't a fill-in-the-blank, but thanks for doing so.
Pathetic.

richard
2008-06-02 04:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright. If you
play the original on your computer and the copy in your car, you have
deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
That is not what copyright protects.
Copyright protects the illegal sale and distribution.
You cannot profit from another person's work.

Hell, I used to have a bunch of 45's that I got from a friend and all
of them were marked clearly, "Promotional copy not for sale".
So it was legal to give them away as desired.
Larry
2008-06-02 04:54:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright. If you
play the original on your computer and the copy in your car, you have
deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
That is not what copyright protects.
Copyright protects the illegal sale and distribution.
You cannot profit from another person's work.
Profit has nothing to do with it. As you wrote in the line right before
this, it protects illegal sale AND distribution. Even when that
distribution is not for profit.
Post by richard
Hell, I used to have a bunch of 45's that I got from a friend and all
of them were marked clearly, "Promotional copy not for sale".
So it was legal to give them away as desired.
Do you think that has to do with copyright law? Do you really?
Deadrat
2008-06-02 05:05:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright. If you
play the original on your computer and the copy in your car, you have
deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
That is not what copyright protects.
Copyright protects the illegal sale and distribution.
No, no, no. Copyright protects the *right* to *copy*.
Post by richard
You cannot profit from another person's work.
Of course, you can. You might get permission to use the work. The
copyright may have expired. You might have bought the copyright. You
may have created a derivative work. Shall I go on?
Post by richard
Hell, I used to have a bunch of 45's that I got from a friend and all
of them were marked clearly, "Promotional copy not for sale".
So it was legal to give them away as desired.
Do you not understand the difference between the physical thing (which
you own and may dispose of as you wish) and copying the contents of the
thing? Where in your nostalgic story of old 45s is there any copying
going on?

C'mon, richard.
tjab
2008-06-02 14:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright. If you
play the original on your computer and the copy in your car, you have
deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
Code cite or case law?
foad
2008-06-02 15:23:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by tjab
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright. If you
play the original on your computer and the copy in your car, you have
deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
Code cite or case law?
He has no idea what he's talking about, that's a stunner.


Audio Home Recording Rights Act, 1992

The Audio Home Recording Rights Act was established in response to the
development of DAT and DCC (minidisc) technologies, which enable users to
create lossless copies of audio CDs that can then be recopied and
distributed. Powerful music industry and artist interest lobbies spurred the
passage of the AHRA, which "prohibits the importation, manufacture, and
distribution of any digital audio recording service that does not
incorporate technological contraints...that block second-genaration digital
copying" ( Merges ). *** The AHRA thus established the "personal use"
standard, whereby an individual may legally make a personal copy of
purchased copyrighted material but may not make additional copies for the
purpose of distribution. *** The AHRA marked a significant shift >in the
direction of U.S. copyright law. For the first time, copyright law actively
placed restrictions on technology for the purposes of copyright protection.
Deadrat
2008-06-02 16:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by foad
Post by tjab
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright. If you
play the original on your computer and the copy in your car, you have
deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
Code cite or case law?
He has no idea what he's talking about, that's a stunner.
Audio Home Recording Rights Act, 1992
The Audio Home Recording Rights Act was established in response to the
development of DAT and DCC (minidisc) technologies, which enable users
to create lossless copies of audio CDs that can then be recopied and
distributed. Powerful music industry and artist interest lobbies
spurred the passage of the AHRA, which "prohibits the importation,
manufacture, and distribution of any digital audio recording service
that does not incorporate technological contraints...that block
second-genaration digital copying" ( Merges ). *** The AHRA thus
established the "personal use" standard, whereby an individual may
legally make a personal copy of purchased copyrighted material but may
not make additional copies for the purpose of distribution. *** The
AHRA marked a significant shift >in the direction of U.S. copyright
law. For the first time, copyright law actively placed restrictions on
technology for the purposes of copyright protection.
The AHRA extended the "Betamax" rule, which allowed the sale of devices
that could infringe copyright.
tjab
2008-06-03 16:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deadrat
Post by foad
Post by tjab
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright. If you
play the original on your computer and the copy in your car, you have
deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
Code cite or case law?
He has no idea what he's talking about, that's a stunner.
Audio Home Recording Rights Act, 1992
The Audio Home Recording Rights Act was established in response to the
development of DAT and DCC (minidisc) technologies, which enable users
to create lossless copies of audio CDs that can then be recopied and
distributed. Powerful music industry and artist interest lobbies
spurred the passage of the AHRA, which "prohibits the importation,
manufacture, and distribution of any digital audio recording service
that does not incorporate technological contraints...that block
second-genaration digital copying" ( Merges ). *** The AHRA thus
established the "personal use" standard, whereby an individual may
legally make a personal copy of purchased copyrighted material but may
not make additional copies for the purpose of distribution. *** The
AHRA marked a significant shift >in the direction of U.S. copyright
law. For the first time, copyright law actively placed restrictions on
technology for the purposes of copyright protection.
The AHRA extended the "Betamax" rule, which allowed the sale of devices
that could infringe copyright.
It's not nice to misrepresent decisions of the US Supreme Court.
Deadrat
2008-06-03 19:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by tjab
Post by Deadrat
Post by foad
Post by tjab
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought,
period. The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the
copyright. If you play the original on your computer and the copy
in your car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one
sale.
Code cite or case law?
He has no idea what he's talking about, that's a stunner.
Audio Home Recording Rights Act, 1992
The Audio Home Recording Rights Act was established in response to
the development of DAT and DCC (minidisc) technologies, which enable
users to create lossless copies of audio CDs that can then be
recopied and distributed. Powerful music industry and artist
interest lobbies spurred the passage of the AHRA, which "prohibits
the importation, manufacture, and distribution of any digital audio
recording service that does not incorporate technological
contraints...that block second-genaration digital copying" ( Merges
). *** The AHRA thus established the "personal use" standard,
whereby an individual may legally make a personal copy of purchased
copyrighted material but may not make additional copies for the
purpose of distribution. *** The AHRA marked a significant shift >in
the direction of U.S. copyright law. For the first time, copyright
law actively placed restrictions on technology for the purposes of
copyright protection.
The AHRA extended the "Betamax" rule, which allowed the sale of
devices that could infringe copyright.
It's not nice to misrepresent decisions of the US Supreme Court.
Another contentless post. You're gonna disappoint Larry again.

The AHRA is not a Supreme Court decision. Would you like to discuss
Supreme Court decisions about the AHRA?

I didn't think so.
Larry
2008-06-03 19:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deadrat
Post by tjab
Post by Deadrat
Post by foad
Post by tjab
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought,
period. The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the
copyright. If you play the original on your computer and the copy
in your car, you have deprived the owner of the copyright of one
sale.
Code cite or case law?
He has no idea what he's talking about, that's a stunner.
Audio Home Recording Rights Act, 1992
The Audio Home Recording Rights Act was established in response to
the development of DAT and DCC (minidisc) technologies, which enable
users to create lossless copies of audio CDs that can then be
recopied and distributed. Powerful music industry and artist
interest lobbies spurred the passage of the AHRA, which "prohibits
the importation, manufacture, and distribution of any digital audio
recording service that does not incorporate technological
contraints...that block second-genaration digital copying" ( Merges
). *** The AHRA thus established the "personal use" standard,
whereby an individual may legally make a personal copy of purchased
copyrighted material but may not make additional copies for the
purpose of distribution. *** The AHRA marked a significant shift >in
the direction of U.S. copyright law. For the first time, copyright
law actively placed restrictions on technology for the purposes of
copyright protection.
The AHRA extended the "Betamax" rule, which allowed the sale of
devices that could infringe copyright.
It's not nice to misrepresent decisions of the US Supreme Court.
Another contentless post. You're gonna disappoint Larry again.
It is hard to be disappointed when my expectations are so low to begin
with.
Deadrat
2008-06-02 16:46:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by foad
Post by tjab
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright. If you
play the original on your computer and the copy in your car, you have
deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
Code cite or case law?
He has no idea what he's talking about, that's a stunner.
Audio Home Recording Rights Act, 1992
The Audio Home Recording Rights Act was established in response to the
development of DAT and DCC (minidisc) technologies, which enable users
to create lossless copies of audio CDs that can then be recopied and
distributed. Powerful music industry and artist interest lobbies
spurred the passage of the AHRA, which "prohibits the importation,
manufacture, and distribution of any digital audio recording service
that does not incorporate technological contraints...that block
second-genaration digital copying" ( Merges ). *** The AHRA thus
established the "personal use" standard, whereby an individual may
legally make a personal copy of purchased copyrighted material but may
not make additional copies for the purpose of distribution. *** The
AHRA marked a significant shift >in the direction of U.S. copyright
law. For the first time, copyright law actively placed restrictions on
technology for the purposes of copyright protection.
Also note that the DMCA (1996) makes it illegal to circumvent DRM whether
or not any illegal copying is done. So if the CD is copy-protected, you
can't legally arrange to copy it.
Deadrat
2008-06-02 16:34:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by tjab
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright. If you
play the original on your computer and the copy in your car, you have
deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
Code cite or case law?
Here's what copyright means:

<quote src="USC" title="17" section="106">
Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this
title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the
following:
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
</quote>

Exclusive means you don't get to copy things that you don't own.

You may however claim a safe harbor under the provision of "fair use":

<quote src="USC" title="17" section="107">
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of
a copyrighted work, ... for purposes such as criticism, comment, news
reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use),
scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.
</quote>

Fair use encourages the free circulation of copyrighted material in the
country's intellectual forums and does not extend to the personal
convenience of not having to juggle one CD between your computer's drive
and your car's player.

No one has ever been sued for having an homemade copy of a CD in his car.
In the first place, how would anyone else know; and in the second, how
much could the copyright holder recover? But that's a different issue.
Larry
2008-06-02 17:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deadrat
Post by tjab
Post by Deadrat
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Deadrat
Post by Scout
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Post by Larry
Post by richard
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end
user certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I find it humorous that you make this claim, since you've
repeatedly demonstrated that you can't - or won't - read statutes.
Can you cite me
a "right" given to music listeners in federal copyright law?
17USC107
Fair use and all that it means.
Fair use doesn't give end user music listeners any rights at all.
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
As long as "........" means "but not legally."
Wrong, as always.
Sorry, but you cannot legally make a copy of a CD you bought, period.
The right of copy(ing) belongs to the owner of the copyright. If you
play the original on your computer and the copy in your car, you have
deprived the owner of the copyright of one sale.
Code cite or case law?
<quote src="USC" title="17" section="106">
Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this
title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
</quote>
Exclusive means you don't get to copy things that you don't own.
<quote src="USC" title="17" section="107">
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of
a copyrighted work, ... for purposes such as criticism, comment, news
reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use),
scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.
</quote>
Fair use encourages the free circulation of copyrighted material in the
country's intellectual forums and does not extend to the personal
convenience of not having to juggle one CD between your computer's drive
and your car's player.
No one has ever been sued for having an homemade copy of a CD in his car.
In the first place, how would anyone else know; and in the second, how
much could the copyright holder recover? But that's a different issue.
There you go, quoting law to tjab. How dare you?
foad
2008-06-02 17:17:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
There you go, quoting law to tjab. How dare you?
Section 1008. "Prohibition on certain infringement actions"

"No action may be brought under [The Copyright Act] alleging infringement of
copyright based on [...] the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a
device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical
recordings."
Deadrat
2008-06-02 21:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by foad
Post by Larry
There you go, quoting law to tjab. How dare you?
Section 1008. "Prohibition on certain infringement actions"
"No action may be brought under [The Copyright Act] alleging
infringement of copyright based on [...] the noncommercial use by a
consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical
recordings or analog musical recordings."
Ah, ya gotta love the ellipsis. Let's [ fill that in ] shall we:

<quote>
No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of
copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a
digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an
analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the
noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making
digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings.
</quote>

This says that a copyright holder cannot sue the manufacturer of
particular recording devices because it might be used to copy muisc. It
also gives safe harbor to individuals who use those devices to make
personal, noncommercial copies.

<error alert>
I was too hasty to conclude that richard wasn't using a digital audio
recording device. Mea culpa.
</error alert>

Your PC or Mac isn't a digital audio recording device even though it is a
device that can record digital audio.
Mxsmanic
2008-06-03 11:50:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
That was never governed by fair use.
Kurt Ullman
2008-06-03 12:15:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scout
Right, which is why I can make a copy of the CD for use in my car........
That was never governed by fair use.
The various music and motion picture groups have long held that wasn't
fair use. I don't recall the outcomes any more, but they were pushing at
one time for an added charge for blank media that would then "pay" them
for such illicit usage. When I was following it, Congress had turned
them down a couple of times on their "tax". Don't know it that
particular mess resurfaced.
Mxsmanic
2008-06-03 14:15:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Ullman
The various music and motion picture groups have long held that wasn't
fair use.
They are right, in this case. That doesn't mean that it's illegal.
Benj
2008-06-01 04:53:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
How eloquent.  And wrong.
Do you know what started all this crap?
The director of RIAA, a woman with no clues about copyrighty laws,
said to the creator of NAPSTER, "Aren't you aware that what you are
doing is illegal?"
No it's not. Never has been. The program he wrote never violated the
laws. As I can legally share with you any item I own. Again, what I
can not do with it is, make copies and sell it.
Well, that's the way it USED to be. You know "Copyright" = right to
copy? But all that has changed. Take the Napster case. As you know it
went to the Supreme court and they decided AGAINST Napster. Sure he
was only making software, but the court said that he "should have
known" that people would use it to copy things illegally. You know
its the same idea that if you manufacture guns, you "should have
known" that criminals would kill people with them, or if you make cars
you should have known that people would get drunk and kill and injure
others with your products. Bottom line is that if someone is misusing
a product you make, you have to be responsible for all the damages
done by anyone who misuses that product! It's only sensible I'm sure.

As for "fair use"? It's non-existent. Courts have stripped it down to
a level where a "researcher" can quote a few words for a review of
your work or a teacher might read a few lines of it in class but if
you xerox a paper or copy some music to do research, it's a copyright
violation pure and simple. There is no such thing as a copyright
holder having a responsibility to society. If someone wants to refer
to your work for research to educate the next generation, then let
them pay through the nose! It's only sensible!
Post by richard
Do you own law books? Have you ever given one of them to a friend? Now
why is that legal to do and not with music?
Have you ever purchased a CD and given it to a friend as a present?
Legal? Yes it is.
Well, USED to be! You need to get up on the law. Today with software
people leading the way, things change. Used to be when you purchased a
CD or software or a book. You got to own the book and to use it and to
transfer that book to someone else. But now, you only own the MEDIA
(paper if it's a book, Plastic if a CD etc.) and the INFORMATION on
that media is only given to you to use under the myriad terms of the
license agreement. Use as long as you owned the book is gone. Now the
license is for a limited time. So you get to read your book or play
the CD for a year and then when the license runs out you the device
quits or a minimum it becomes illegal to use it. You simply then have
to purchase a NEW license for an additional year! And keep doing that
EVERY year until you are no longer interested in the intellectual
property! Shouldn't the creator be able to make a profit from others
using their work? Of course, it's only "sensible"!

Of course the public does have a say in all this and they can vote
with their wallets. All this nasty greed is killing the goose that
laid the golden egg and is the motor behind the "open source"
copyright movement. These product are actually copyrighted but
licensed in such a way that prohibits the usual copyright
restrictions. Smart.

And oh, by the way, Congress was not about to let others act without
jumping on the greed bandwagon and has extended copyright law to such
an extent that the next revision will be to ban all public domain
works forever. The payments to the copyright holders will continue on
through estates of the dead long after the original author or artist
is worm food. You know that Mozart and Beethoven had relatives and
his descendants should all deserve cut of their genius! It's only
sensible.

As for me this is being posted from Firefox and Ubuntu. Screw the
greedy bastards.
Deadrat
2008-06-01 05:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benj
Post by richard
How eloquent.  And wrong.
Do you know what started all this crap?
The director of RIAA, a woman with no clues about copyrighty laws,
said to the creator of NAPSTER, "Aren't you aware that what you are
doing is illegal?"
No it's not. Never has been. The program he wrote never violated the
laws. As I can legally share with you any item I own. Again, what I
can not do with it is, make copies and sell it.
Well, that's the way it USED to be. You know "Copyright" = right to
copy? But all that has changed. Take the Napster case. As you know it
went to the Supreme court and they decided AGAINST Napster.
I don't think I know this. It went to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.
Perhaps you're thinking of Grokster.
Post by Benj
Sure he
was only making software, but the court said that he "should have
known" that people would use it to copy things illegally.
I think the court said that he did know.
Post by Benj
You know
its the same idea that if you manufacture guns, you "should have
known" that criminals would kill people with them, or if you make cars
you should have known that people would get drunk and kill and injure
others with your products. Bottom line is that if someone is misusing
a product you make, you have to be responsible for all the damages
done by anyone who misuses that product! It's only sensible I'm sure.
I think you're confusing vicarious copyright infringement with strict
product liability.
Post by Benj
As for "fair use"? It's non-existent. Courts have stripped it down to
a level where a "researcher" can quote a few words for a review of
your work or a teacher might read a few lines of it in class but if
you xerox a paper or copy some music to do research, it's a copyright
violation pure and simple.
Your attack on private ownership of property is noted, Comrade, and will
be reported with favor to the Central Committee.

But could we have a cite for the courts stripping things down? Fair use
is decided in context.
Post by Benj
There is no such thing as a copyright
holder having a responsibility to society.
We generally leave to the individual what responsibility to will show to
society, particularly when it involves his own property.
Post by Benj
If someone wants to refer
to your work for research to educate the next generation, then let
them pay through the nose! It's only sensible!
Post by richard
Do you own law books? Have you ever given one of them to a friend? Now
why is that legal to do and not with music?
Have you ever purchased a CD and given it to a friend as a present?
Legal? Yes it is.
Well, USED to be! You need to get up on the law. Today with software
people leading the way, things change. Used to be when you purchased a
CD or software or a book. You got to own the book and to use it and to
transfer that book to someone else. But now, you only own the MEDIA
(paper if it's a book, Plastic if a CD etc.) and the INFORMATION on
that media is only given to you to use under the myriad terms of the
license agreement.
This isn't the change you're thinking of. You still own the paper or
plastic, and you can still give it away. You never owned the
information, in the sense that you could copy it freely. The change has
been in software licensing.
Post by Benj
Use as long as you owned the book is gone. Now the
license is for a limited time. So you get to read your book or play
the CD for a year and then when the license runs out you the device
quits or a minimum it becomes illegal to use it. You simply then have
to purchase a NEW license for an additional year!
Could we have the titles of books or CDs that follow this policy?
Post by Benj
And keep doing that
EVERY year until you are no longer interested in the intellectual
property! Shouldn't the creator be able to make a profit from others
using their work? Of course, it's only "sensible"!
So you don't think that creators should be able to make a profit from
others using their work?
Post by Benj
Of course the public does have a say in all this and they can vote
with their wallets. All this nasty greed is killing the goose that
laid the golden egg and is the motor behind the "open source"
copyright movement. These product are actually copyrighted but
licensed in such a way that prohibits the usual copyright
restrictions. Smart.
And oh, by the way, Congress was not about to let others act without
jumping on the greed bandwagon and has extended copyright law to such
an extent that the next revision will be to ban all public domain
works forever.
Cite? Or are you just on a soapbox?
Post by Benj
The payments to the copyright holders will continue on
through estates of the dead long after the original author or artist
is worm food. You know that Mozart and Beethoven had relatives and
his descendants should all deserve cut of their genius! It's only
sensible.
As for me this is being posted from Firefox and Ubuntu. Screw the
greedy bastards.
Let me guess. You've never created any valuable intellectual property of
your own, have you?
tjab
2008-06-01 19:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deadrat
So you don't think that creators should be able to make a profit from
others using their work?
I think it depends on how the work is used. And the law agrees.
Deadrat
2008-06-01 04:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
More wikipedia bullshit.
The United States copyright laws already give consumers certain rights
to enjoy music as they see fit for their own personal use.
Copyright laws do not in any way protect the end user, Richard. They
protect the owner of the copyright.
Larry, you are not an expert in the field.
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I can legally copy a protected song into any device I own and listen
at my convenience. What I can not do legally, is make copies and sell
that item. That's what the copyright law is all about.
Unless you're granted a license to do so, you can't make copies period.
Sale doesn't enter into it.
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
If I go to
a store, buy a CD and then copy the contents to my computer, that is
100% legal. I'll bet that it's even legal in Canada.
Then there is another problem with this farce. Jurisdiction.
In the USA, domains are controlled by ICANN. If you own a domain name
registered in the USA, then the USA laws apply to that domain name
regardless of where you live. Read the laws.
You obviously haven't.
I have.
Which ones?
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Canada does NOT have the legal right to shut down any dot com website
for alleged copyright infringement. Think about it. How is a Canadian
Court going to impose Canadian laws on a USA citizen living in the
USA?
Have you thought about it? Have you researched it?
As a NYC ADA, Larry, can you legally prosecute a citizen of Canada who
has never set foot in your city? Of course not. This is why we have
borders. Canadian laws have no meaning in the USA. Period.
How do you suppose that trade agreement is gonna work? Do you think the
Mounties will be sweeping south across the border, kidnapping US
citizens, and dragging them to Canada for trial?

Only the US is allowed to do that kind of thing. In the name of the war
on terror, of course.
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Here's a free hint on where to start: look up the history of France and
Yahoo.
In that case against yahoo, in France, the case only effected that
portion of yahoo that resides in France. Are you aware that yahoo has
offices in France? Probably not.
Post by Larry
Post by richard
This trade agreement sounds like somebody's scare tactic to curb the
illegal copying of files. So what are we supposed to do then when
crossing borders? Carry proper documentation that we have the legal
right to the music and other property? Bullshit.
How eloquent. And wrong.
Do you know what started all this crap?
The director of RIAA, a woman with no clues about copyrighty laws,
said to the creator of NAPSTER, "Aren't you aware that what you are
doing is illegal?"
No it's not. Never has been. The program he wrote never violated the
laws. As I can legally share with you any item I own. Again, what I
can not do with it is, make copies and sell it.
Do you own law books? Have you ever given one of them to a friend?
Ask him if he's copied the "Restatement of Torts" and given it to a
friend.
Post by richard
Now why is that legal to do and not with music?
Have you ever purchasesd a CD and given it to a friend as a present?
Legal? Yes it is.
It's not illegal to give a friend a CD; it's illegal to give him a copy
you made of that CD.
richard
2008-06-02 04:29:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@excite.com
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
More wikipedia bullshit.
The United States copyright laws already give consumers certain
rights
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
to enjoy music as they see fit for their own personal use.
Copyright laws do not in any way protect the end user, Richard. They
protect the owner of the copyright.
Larry, you are not an expert in the field.
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I can legally copy a protected song into any device I own and listen
at my convenience. What I can not do legally, is make copies and sell
that item. That's what the copyright law is all about.
Unless you're granted a license to do so, you can't make copies period.
Sale doesn't enter into it.
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
If I go to
a store, buy a CD and then copy the contents to my computer, that is
100% legal. I'll bet that it's even legal in Canada.
Then there is another problem with this farce. Jurisdiction.
In the USA, domains are controlled by ICANN. If you own a domain name
registered in the USA, then the USA laws apply to that domain name
regardless of where you live. Read the laws.
You obviously haven't.
I have.
Which ones?
Sheeesh. After 20 years of internet stupidity you have to ask?
.com
.org
.edu
.net
.gov
.us
.info
.biz
.name
And maybe a few more.

Congress has given the FTC full control over the TLD's issued to the
USA.
ICANN is the entity that handles disputes and rights regarding them.
Post by r***@excite.com
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Canada does NOT have the legal right to shut down any dot com website
for alleged copyright infringement. Think about it. How is a Canadian
Court going to impose Canadian laws on a USA citizen living in the
USA?
Have you thought about it? Have you researched it?
As a NYC ADA, Larry, can you legally prosecute a citizen of Canada who
has never set foot in your city? Of course not. This is why we have
borders. Canadian laws have no meaning in the USA. Period.
How do you suppose that trade agreement is gonna work? Do you think the
Mounties will be sweeping south across the border, kidnapping US
citizens, and dragging them to Canada for trial?
Only the US is allowed to do that kind of thing. In the name of the war
on terror, of course.
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Here's a free hint on where to start: look up the history of France and
Yahoo.
In that case against yahoo, in France, the case only effected that
portion of yahoo that resides in France. Are you aware that yahoo has
offices in France? Probably not.
Post by Larry
Post by richard
This trade agreement sounds like somebody's scare tactic to curb the
illegal copying of files. So what are we supposed to do then when
crossing borders? Carry proper documentation that we have the legal
right to the music and other property? Bullshit.
How eloquent. And wrong.
Do you know what started all this crap?
The director of RIAA, a woman with no clues about copyrighty laws,
said to the creator of NAPSTER, "Aren't you aware that what you are
doing is illegal?"
No it's not. Never has been. The program he wrote never violated the
laws. As I can legally share with you any item I own. Again, what I
can not do with it is, make copies and sell it.
Do you own law books? Have you ever given one of them to a friend?
Ask him if he's copied the "Restatement of Torts" and given it to a
friend.
Post by richard
Now why is that legal to do and not with music?
Have you ever purchasesd a CD and given it to a friend as a present?
Legal? Yes it is.
It's not illegal to give a friend a CD; it's illegal to give him a copy
you made of that CD.
Larry
2008-06-02 04:45:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
More wikipedia bullshit.
The United States copyright laws already give consumers certain
rights
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
to enjoy music as they see fit for their own personal use.
Copyright laws do not in any way protect the end user, Richard. They
protect the owner of the copyright.
Larry, you are not an expert in the field.
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I can legally copy a protected song into any device I own and listen
at my convenience. What I can not do legally, is make copies and sell
that item. That's what the copyright law is all about.
Unless you're granted a license to do so, you can't make copies period.
Sale doesn't enter into it.
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
If I go to
a store, buy a CD and then copy the contents to my computer, that is
100% legal. I'll bet that it's even legal in Canada.
Then there is another problem with this farce. Jurisdiction.
In the USA, domains are controlled by ICANN. If you own a domain name
registered in the USA, then the USA laws apply to that domain name
regardless of where you live. Read the laws.
You obviously haven't.
I have.
Which ones?
Sheeesh. After 20 years of internet stupidity you have to ask?
.com
.org
.edu
.net
.gov
.us
.info
.biz
.name
And maybe a few more.
He was asking which laws you've read, moron.

I think I can speak for him when I say that we don't believe that you
ever read the laws that you see fit to comment on.
Deadrat
2008-06-02 04:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
More wikipedia bullshit.
The United States copyright laws already give consumers certain
rights
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
to enjoy music as they see fit for their own personal use.
Copyright laws do not in any way protect the end user, Richard.
They protect the owner of the copyright.
Larry, you are not an expert in the field.
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I can legally copy a protected song into any device I own and
listen at my convenience. What I can not do legally, is make
copies and sell that item. That's what the copyright law is all
about.
Unless you're granted a license to do so, you can't make copies
period. Sale doesn't enter into it.
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
If I go to
a store, buy a CD and then copy the contents to my computer,
that is 100% legal. I'll bet that it's even legal in Canada.
Then there is another problem with this farce. Jurisdiction.
In the USA, domains are controlled by ICANN. If you own a domain
name registered in the USA, then the USA laws apply to that
domain name regardless of where you live. Read the laws.
You obviously haven't.
I have.
Which ones?
Sheeesh. After 20 years of internet stupidity you have to ask?
.com
.org
.edu
.net
.gov
.us
.info
.biz
.name
And maybe a few more.
He was asking which laws you've read, moron.
I think I can speak for him when I say that we don't believe that you
ever read the laws that you see fit to comment on.
C'mon, richard. When are we gonna do a close reading of 18USC1030? I
only have to the end of November. Remember, we're on the same side here.
richard
2008-06-02 04:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@excite.com
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
More wikipedia bullshit.
The United States copyright laws already give consumers certain
rights
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
to enjoy music as they see fit for their own personal use.
Copyright laws do not in any way protect the end user, Richard. They
protect the owner of the copyright.
Larry, you are not an expert in the field.
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I can legally copy a protected song into any device I own and listen
at my convenience. What I can not do legally, is make copies and sell
that item. That's what the copyright law is all about.
Unless you're granted a license to do so, you can't make copies period.
Sale doesn't enter into it.
Only in the sales of said items. That would be known as "pirating" or
counterfieting.
If I were to print hundreds of t-shirts that said "Wisconsin Badgers"
on it there is not a damn thing the University of Wisconsin could do
about it. As the "badger" is the state animal.
However, should I apply the team mascot to said t-shirts, then I could
be sued.

Let's say I have a collection of tunes from the 1960's. I want to copy
them onto various CD's I own. I want to play them in my car. And want
to keep the original CD safe from harm. That I can legally do.
You happen to hear one and ask me if you can have a copy.
I give it to you.
Have we just violated the law?
No. But if I demand you pay me ten bucks for it, then I have violated
the law.

The internet has made it only to easy for people to pass files from
one end of the country to the other. You download a copyrighted tune
from a newsgroup. Are you in violation of the law? Not so far. But
maybe some day you will be.

Then if we really want to get technical, we violate the copyright law
simply by vieiwing a website. Because we have downloaded the content
onto our computer.
Larry
2008-06-02 04:52:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
More wikipedia bullshit.
The United States copyright laws already give consumers certain
rights
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
to enjoy music as they see fit for their own personal use.
Copyright laws do not in any way protect the end user, Richard. They
protect the owner of the copyright.
Larry, you are not an expert in the field.
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I can legally copy a protected song into any device I own and listen
at my convenience. What I can not do legally, is make copies and sell
that item. That's what the copyright law is all about.
Unless you're granted a license to do so, you can't make copies period.
Sale doesn't enter into it.
Only in the sales of said items. That would be known as "pirating" or
counterfieting.
If I were to print hundreds of t-shirts that said "Wisconsin Badgers"
on it there is not a damn thing the University of Wisconsin could do
about it. As the "badger" is the state animal.
However, should I apply the team mascot to said t-shirts, then I could
be sued.
True. And irrelevant.
Post by richard
Let's say I have a collection of tunes from the 1960's. I want to copy
them onto various CD's I own. I want to play them in my car. And want
to keep the original CD safe from harm. That I can legally do.
Richard, any time you claim you can legally do something or have the
right to do something, I'm going to call you out on it. (See Deadrat,
I'm even trying to help you beat me in our side-bet!)

Please cite for me the authority that says you can legally do this.
Post by richard
You happen to hear one and ask me if you can have a copy.
I give it to you.
Have we just violated the law?
No.
Yes.
Post by richard
But if I demand you pay me ten bucks for it, then I have violated
the law.
Or even if you don't.
Post by richard
The internet has made it only to easy for people to pass files from
one end of the country to the other. You download a copyrighted tune
from a newsgroup. Are you in violation of the law? Not so far. But
maybe some day you will be.
Then if we really want to get technical, we violate the copyright law
simply by vieiwing a website. Because we have downloaded the content
onto our computer.
Do you really think you're being "technical" here? And that this hasn't
thoroughly been litigated in court already? Do you really?
Deadrat
2008-06-02 04:56:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
More wikipedia bullshit.
The United States copyright laws already give consumers certain
rights
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
to enjoy music as they see fit for their own personal use.
Copyright laws do not in any way protect the end user, Richard.
They protect the owner of the copyright.
Larry, you are not an expert in the field.
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I can legally copy a protected song into any device I own and listen
at my convenience. What I can not do legally, is make copies and
sell that item. That's what the copyright law is all about.
Unless you're granted a license to do so, you can't make copies
period. Sale doesn't enter into it.
Only in the sales of said items. That would be known as "pirating" or
counterfieting.
If I were to print hundreds of t-shirts that said "Wisconsin Badgers"
on it there is not a damn thing the University of Wisconsin could do
about it. As the "badger" is the state animal.
However, should I apply the team mascot to said t-shirts, then I could
be sued.
Let's say I have a collection of tunes from the 1960's. I want to copy
them onto various CD's I own. I want to play them in my car. And want
to keep the original CD safe from harm. That I can legally do.
If the original CDs aren't copy-protected, then you may make an archive
copy.
Post by richard
You happen to hear one and ask me if you can have a copy.
I give it to you.
Have we just violated the law?
No.
You may be safe under fair use doctrine if you use it yourself. Maybe
not, though. No one has been sued for this.
Post by richard
But if I demand you pay me ten bucks for it, then I have violated
the law.
Nope. Once you've given the copy away you've definitely affected the
commercial life of the CD (since your friend didn't have to buy one).
That and the fact that you've copied the whole thing vitiates any claim
you have to fair use.
Post by richard
The internet has made it only to easy for people to pass files from
one end of the country to the other. You download a copyrighted tune
from a newsgroup. Are you in violation of the law? Not so far.
Tell that to all the music downloaders (or their parents) who had to
settle out of court lest they be held liable for copyright violation in
slam-dunk law suits. Slam-dunk for the recording industry.

Tell that to (now bankrupt) Napster.
Post by richard
But maybe some day you will be.
That day is now.
Post by richard
Then if we really want to get technical, we violate the copyright law
simply by vieiwing a website. Because we have downloaded the content
onto our computer.
Transient copies that enable computer display are not considered
copyright violations.
GeekBoy
2008-06-02 21:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by r***@excite.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
More wikipedia bullshit.
The United States copyright laws already give consumers certain rights
to enjoy music as they see fit for their own personal use.
Copyright laws do not in any way protect the end user, Richard. They
protect the owner of the copyright.
Larry, you are not an expert in the field.
There are clauses in the copyright laws which give the end user
certain "rights" to enjoy that music as they see fit.
I can legally copy a protected song into any device I own and listen
at my convenience. What I can not do legally, is make copies and sell
that item. That's what the copyright law is all about.
Post by Larry
Post by richard
If I go to
a store, buy a CD and then copy the contents to my computer, that is
100% legal. I'll bet that it's even legal in Canada.
Then there is another problem with this farce. Jurisdiction.
In the USA, domains are controlled by ICANN. If you own a domain name
registered in the USA, then the USA laws apply to that domain name
regardless of where you live. Read the laws.
You obviously haven't.
I have.
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Canada does NOT have the legal right to shut down any dot com website
for alleged copyright infringement. Think about it. How is a Canadian
Court going to impose Canadian laws on a USA citizen living in the
USA?
Have you thought about it? Have you researched it?
As a NYC ADA, Larry, can you legally prosecute a citizen of Canada who
has never set foot in your city? Of course not. This is why we have
borders. Canadian laws have no meaning in the USA. Period.
You mean like Manuel Noriega who never stepped foot in the US, but got a 30
year sentence in US courts?
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Here's a free hint on where to start: look up the history of France and
Yahoo.
In that case against yahoo, in France, the case only effected that
portion of yahoo that resides in France. Are you aware that yahoo has
offices in France? Probably not.
Post by Larry
Post by richard
This trade agreement sounds like somebody's scare tactic to curb the
illegal copying of files. So what are we supposed to do then when
crossing borders? Carry proper documentation that we have the legal
right to the music and other property? Bullshit.
How eloquent. And wrong.
Do you know what started all this crap?
The director of RIAA, a woman with no clues about copyrighty laws,
said to the creator of NAPSTER, "Aren't you aware that what you are
doing is illegal?"
No it's not. Never has been. The program he wrote never violated the
laws. As I can legally share with you any item I own. Again, what I
can not do with it is, make copies and sell it.
Do you own law books? Have you ever given one of them to a friend? Now
why is that legal to do and not with music?
Have you ever purchasesd a CD and given it to a friend as a present?
Legal? Yes it is.
Bill Cunningham
2008-06-01 03:20:05 UTC
Permalink
What about the Fair use doctrine? Digital rights management is the bad
thing.

Bill
richard
2008-06-01 03:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Cunningham
What about the Fair use doctrine? Digital rights management is the bad
thing.
Bill
Precisely. M$ has declared itself the watchdog of the industry and now
insists that simply because you use it's products, YOU must have a
license. No license? You're screwed.
Even though you have legally obtained that music.

I can't even play a WMA file on winamp simply because I have no
license. DRM ain't about rights, it's about kickbacks and making
money.
Larry
2008-06-01 03:55:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Post by Bill Cunningham
What about the Fair use doctrine? Digital rights management is the bad
thing.
Bill
Precisely. M$ has declared itself the watchdog of the industry and now
insists that simply because you use it's products, YOU must have a
license. No license? You're screwed.
Wait, a company that creates something gets to decide how the product is
used? SHOCKING!
Post by richard
Even though you have legally obtained that music.
You have obtained it pursuant to your license with them. You don't have
an absolute right to use it however you want.
Post by richard
I can't even play a WMA file on winamp simply because I have no
license. DRM ain't about rights, it's about kickbacks and making
money.
Wait, a company that creates something gets to make money from letting
others use it? SHOCKING!
richard
2008-06-01 05:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by Bill Cunningham
What about the Fair use doctrine? Digital rights management is the bad
thing.
Bill
Precisely. M$ has declared itself the watchdog of the industry and now
insists that simply because you use it's products, YOU must have a
license. No license? You're screwed.
Wait, a company that creates something gets to decide how the product is
used? SHOCKING!
M$ did not create the music. The program now includes a protective
device known as DRM that says, "no license, no listen".
That sir, is illegal.
I refuse to use that program on that basis.
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Even though you have legally obtained that music.
You have obtained it pursuant to your license with them. You don't have
an absolute right to use it however you want.
Yes I do. As long as it is in the privacy of my own home and for
personal use.
Post by Larry
Post by richard
I can't even play a WMA file on winamp simply because I have no
license. DRM ain't about rights, it's about kickbacks and making
money.
Wait, a company that creates something gets to make money from letting
others use it? SHOCKING!
The license agreement is nothing more than a moneymaking scam for a
certain few and you know damn good and well the artists aren't getting
a dime of it.
Larry
2008-06-01 17:20:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Post by Bill Cunningham
What about the Fair use doctrine? Digital rights management is the bad
thing.
Bill
Precisely. M$ has declared itself the watchdog of the industry and now
insists that simply because you use it's products, YOU must have a
license. No license? You're screwed.
Wait, a company that creates something gets to decide how the product is
used? SHOCKING!
M$ did not create the music. The program now includes a protective
device known as DRM that says, "no license, no listen".
That sir, is illegal.
Why is this illegal? If you think it is, please the statute it violates
Post by richard
I refuse to use that program on that basis.
As is your right. Don't use the program and find another music player.
You're perfectly entitled to do so.
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Even though you have legally obtained that music.
You have obtained it pursuant to your license with them. You don't have
an absolute right to use it however you want.
Yes I do. As long as it is in the privacy of my own home and for
personal use.
Only if that's what the license says.
Post by richard
Post by Larry
Post by richard
I can't even play a WMA file on winamp simply because I have no
license. DRM ain't about rights, it's about kickbacks and making
money.
Wait, a company that creates something gets to make money from letting
others use it? SHOCKING!
The license agreement is nothing more than a moneymaking scam for a
certain few and you know damn good and well the artists aren't getting
a dime of it.
Whether it is fair or not has little to do with whether it is legal.
Kurt Ullman
2008-06-01 17:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by richard
M$ did not create the music. The program now includes a protective
device known as DRM that says, "no license, no listen".
That sir, is illegal.
Why is this illegal? If you think it is, please the statute it violates
The constitution speficially gives Congress the right to
"(secure) for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right
to their respective writings and discoveries." Congress then went along
and set-up minimum standards for such. DRMs are included in the laws.
Post by Larry
Post by richard
Yes I do. As long as it is in the privacy of my own home and for
personal use.
Only if that's what the license says.
Which is, IIUC, a separate contractural relationship one enters into
when they agree to the terms of service or license of the programs.
Mxsmanic
2008-06-01 19:11:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Ullman
The constitution speficially gives Congress the right to
"(secure) for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right
to their respective writings and discoveries."
The people who wrote the Constitution had a term of 14 years in mind (the
original duration of copyright protection), not "life + 95 years," and
certainly not eternity.
Kurt Ullman
2008-06-01 20:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
The constitution speficially gives Congress the right to
"(secure) for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right
to their respective writings and discoveries."
The people who wrote the Constitution had a term of 14 years in mind (the
original duration of copyright protection), not "life + 95 years," and
certainly not eternity.
They specifically gave that power to Congress. Everywhere they
wanted something specific, they inserted words with no wiggle room.
Larry
2008-06-01 22:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
The constitution speficially gives Congress the right to
"(secure) for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right
to their respective writings and discoveries."
The people who wrote the Constitution had a term of 14 years in mind (the
original duration of copyright protection), not "life + 95 years," and
certainly not eternity.
They also had in mind the idea that slaves weren't real people. Ideas
change.
Kurt Ullman
2008-06-01 22:40:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
The constitution speficially gives Congress the right to
"(secure) for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right
to their respective writings and discoveries."
The people who wrote the Constitution had a term of 14 years in mind (the
original duration of copyright protection), not "life + 95 years," and
certainly not eternity.
They also had in mind the idea that slaves weren't real people. Ideas
change.
Sorta like the time frame of the copyrights, innit?
Mxsmanic
2008-06-03 11:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
They also had in mind the idea that slaves weren't real people. Ideas
change.
Have ideas changed so much that one segment of the population is entitled to
work once, and get paid forever (along with its descendants)?

An engineer builds a bridge, but he does not get paid each time someone drives
over it. A dentist implants artificial teeth, but he doesn't get paid each
time his patient eats. And yet a person who writes a song will get paid for
use of that song for the rest of his life, and so will his descendants.

Is that the type of fairness that the writers of the Constitution had in mind?
Kurt Ullman
2008-06-03 12:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Larry
They also had in mind the idea that slaves weren't real people. Ideas
change.
Have ideas changed so much that one segment of the population is entitled to
work once, and get paid forever (along with its descendants)?
Apparently since this reflects no change. That particular segment was
carved out in the original constitution.

a
Post by Mxsmanic
Is that the type of fairness that the writers of the Constitution had in mind?
Apparently since they were the ones that specifically put in the
wording.
Mxsmanic
2008-06-03 14:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since this reflects no change. That particular segment was
carved out in the original constitution.
The writers of the Constitution intended copyright to be temporary and of
short duration, long enough to allow creators of IP to benefit financially
from their work in the same way that others do. It was not intended to be an
immortal golden goose.
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since they were the ones that specifically put in the
wording.
No, they didn't put that in the wording. This is what they said (in reference
to powers granted to the legislative branch of the government):

"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited
times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective
writings and discoveries; [...]"

It's hard to imagine that "limited times" extended a hundred years beyond the
death of the authors and inventors in question. Indeed, it's hard to see how
it could even cover their lifetimes. Clearly, something less than the
lifetime of the concerned parties was intended, otherwise it wouldn't have
been written this way.

Strictly speaking, one could even say that protection is limited to written
material and discoveries or inventions.

In any case, Congress (bribed by large corporations) long ago distorted the
principle beyond recognition.
Kurt Ullman
2008-06-03 16:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since this reflects no change. That particular segment was
carved out in the original constitution.
The writers of the Constitution intended copyright to be temporary and of
short duration, long enough to allow creators of IP to benefit financially
from their work in the same way that others do. It was not intended to be an
immortal golden goose.
You know this how? As I mentioned they did not specific any kind of
time leaving up to the legislative to decide how long is long.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since they were the ones that specifically put in the
wording.
No, they didn't put that in the wording. This is what they said (in reference
"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited
times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective
writings and discoveries; [...]"
Which is exactly my point. They did not set down a specific time,
thus leaving explicitly leaving the ability to define "limited time" to
the Congress. In other areas where they desired specificity, they
included actual language outlining what they wanted. From terms of the
president to composition of the Senate to overriding vetoes.
Post by Mxsmanic
It's hard to imagine that "limited times" extended a hundred years beyond the
death of the authors and inventors in question. Indeed, it's hard to see how
it could even cover their lifetimes. Clearly, something less than the
lifetime of the concerned parties was intended, otherwise it wouldn't have
been written this way.
Nope. If they wanted something specific, they would have included
something specific. You are arguing that their lack of specificity
suggests they had something specific in mind.
Post by Mxsmanic
Strictly speaking, one could even say that protection is limited to written
material and discoveries or inventions.
In any case, Congress (bribed by large corporations) long ago distorted the
principle beyond recognition.
Rod Speed
2008-06-03 20:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since this reflects no change. That particular
segment was carved out in the original constitution.
The writers of the Constitution intended copyright to be temporary
and of short duration, long enough to allow creators of IP to
benefit financially from their work in the same way that others do.
It was not intended to be an immortal golden goose.
You know this how?
From the explicit use of the words FOR LIMITED TIMES.
Post by Kurt Ullman
As I mentioned they did not specific any kind of time
leaving up to the legislative to decide how long is long.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since they were the ones that specifically put in the wording.
No, they didn't put that in the wording. This is what they said (in
"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by
securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive
right to their respective writings and discoveries; [...]"
Which is exactly my point.
Nope.
Post by Kurt Ullman
They did not set down a specific time,
They did however specify FOR LIMITED TIMES.
Post by Kurt Ullman
thus leaving explicitly leaving the ability to define "limited time" to the Congress.
And 100 years after the author is dead doesnt qualify.
Post by Kurt Ullman
In other areas where they desired specificity, they included
actual language outlining what they wanted. From terms of the
president to composition of the Senate to overriding vetoes.
Lot easier to be explicit with that.
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
It's hard to imagine that "limited times" extended a hundred years
beyond the death of the authors and inventors in question. Indeed,
it's hard to see how it could even cover their lifetimes. Clearly,
something less than the lifetime of the concerned parties was
intended, otherwise it wouldn't have been written this way.
Nope.
Yep.
Post by Kurt Ullman
If they wanted something specific, they would have included something specific.
Wrong.
Post by Kurt Ullman
You are arguing that their lack of specificity
suggests they had something specific in mind.
Wrong.
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
Strictly speaking, one could even say that protection is
limited to written material and discoveries or inventions.
In any case, Congress (bribed by large corporations)
long ago distorted the principle beyond recognition.
Larry
2008-06-03 21:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since this reflects no change. That particular
segment was carved out in the original constitution.
The writers of the Constitution intended copyright to be temporary
and of short duration, long enough to allow creators of IP to
benefit financially from their work in the same way that others do.
It was not intended to be an immortal golden goose.
You know this how?
From the explicit use of the words FOR LIMITED TIMES.
For limited times does not mean for temporary and short times, even if
you type it in all caps.

Heck, the creator's life plus 3 centuries is a limited time. Perhaps
the limit is practically meaningless, but it is a limit.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
As I mentioned they did not specific any kind of time
leaving up to the legislative to decide how long is long.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since they were the ones that specifically put in the wording.
No, they didn't put that in the wording. This is what they said (in
"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by
securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive
right to their respective writings and discoveries; [...]"
Which is exactly my point.
Nope.
No, that's not his point?

Between the way you respond to this guy and the way you respond to
Deadrat, I think you argue for the sake of it without even understanding
the matter at hand.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
They did not set down a specific time,
They did however specify FOR LIMITED TIMES.
And there is a limit under the law.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
thus leaving explicitly leaving the ability to define "limited time" to the Congress.
And 100 years after the author is dead doesnt qualify.
What is your legal basis for saying this? That is a limited time. 101
years after the author dies, the right is over. In other words, it is
held for a limited, albeit long, time.

But since you disagree, tell us what *you* would consider to be the
cutoff of "limited"? 5 years? 10? 50? 100? And whatever you think the
cutoff is, please provide support for the position that this is the
proper endpoint for the definition of "limited." For this exercise, you
can use statutes, case law, the Constitution, legislative history,
papers of the founding fathers, or anything else at your disposal. The
only thing you can't do is say "100 years after the author is dead
doesn't qualify because I said so."
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
In other areas where they desired specificity, they included
actual language outlining what they wanted. From terms of the
president to composition of the Senate to overriding vetoes.
Lot easier to be explicit with that.
Whether it is easier or not doesn't matter. The Constitution could have
put a numerical limit on this, but it doesn't. It says "limited" and
therefore leaves it up to Congress for further definition.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
It's hard to imagine that "limited times" extended a hundred years
beyond the death of the authors and inventors in question. Indeed,
it's hard to see how it could even cover their lifetimes. Clearly,
something less than the lifetime of the concerned parties was
intended, otherwise it wouldn't have been written this way.
Nope.
Yep.
What do you base the assertion that it "clearly" is supposed to be
shorter than their lifetime on? Comments made by the founding fathers?
Their contemporary writings? Early case law? Writings of
constitutional scholars? Anything other than your say-so?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
If they wanted something specific, they would have included something specific.
Wrong.
Are you saying that if they wanted something specific, they would not
have been that specific? They would have been intentionally vague and
ambiguous so that perhaps their intentions were not carried out? That
might be the dumbest thing I've read this week.

I'm beginning to think you're just a troll.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
You are arguing that their lack of specificity
suggests they had something specific in mind.
Wrong.
So they didn't have anything specific in mind? That's what he was
trying to tell you.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
Strictly speaking, one could even say that protection is
limited to written material and discoveries or inventions.
In any case, Congress (bribed by large corporations)
long ago distorted the principle beyond recognition.
Rod Speed
2008-06-03 22:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since this reflects no change. That particular
segment was carved out in the original constitution.
The writers of the Constitution intended copyright to be temporary
and of short duration, long enough to allow creators of IP to
benefit financially from their work in the same way that others do.
It was not intended to be an immortal golden goose.
You know this how?
From the explicit use of the words FOR LIMITED TIMES.
For limited times does not mean for temporary and short times, even if you type it in all caps.
Never ever said it did.
Heck, the creator's life plus 3 centuries is a limited time.
Perhaps the limit is practically meaningless, but it is a limit.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
As I mentioned they did not specific any kind of time
leaving up to the legislative to decide how long is long.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since they were the ones that specifically put in the wording.
No, they didn't put that in the wording. This is what they said (in reference
"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by
securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive
right to their respective writings and discoveries; [...]"
Which is exactly my point.
Nope.
No, that's not his point?
Between the way you respond to this guy and the way you respond to Deadrat,
I think you argue for the sake of it without even understanding the matter at hand.
Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh ?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
They did not set down a specific time,
They did however specify FOR LIMITED TIMES.
And there is a limit under the law.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
thus leaving explicitly leaving the ability to define "limited time" to the Congress.
And 100 years after the author is dead doesnt qualify.
What is your legal basis for saying this?
What is yours ?
That is a limited time. 101 years after the author dies, the right
is over. In other words, it is held for a limited, albeit long, time.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
But since you disagree, tell us what *you* would consider
to be the cutoff of "limited"? 5 years? 10? 50? 100?
Just how many of you are there between those ears, parasite ?
And whatever you think the cutoff is, please provide support for the
position that this is the proper endpoint for the definition of "limited."
For this exercise, you can use statutes, case law, the Constitution,
legislative history, papers of the founding fathers, or anything else
at your disposal. The only thing you can't do is say "100 years
after the author is dead doesn't qualify because I said so."
You get no say what so ever on what anyone else can say, parasite.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
In other areas where they desired specificity, they included
actual language outlining what they wanted. From terms of the
president to composition of the Senate to overriding vetoes.
Lot easier to be explicit with that.
Whether it is easier or not doesn't matter.
Wrong, as always.
The Constitution could have put a numerical limit on this, but it doesn't.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
It says "limited" and therefore leaves it up to Congress for further definition.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
It's hard to imagine that "limited times" extended a hundred years
beyond the death of the authors and inventors in question. Indeed,
it's hard to see how it could even cover their lifetimes. Clearly,
something less than the lifetime of the concerned parties was
intended, otherwise it wouldn't have been written this way.
Nope.
Yep.
What do you base the assertion that it "clearly" is supposed to be
shorter than their lifetime on? Comments made by the founding
fathers? Their contemporary writings? Early case law? Writings
of constitutional scholars? Anything other than your say-so?
Your claims in spades.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
If they wanted something specific, they would have included something specific.
Wrong.
Are you saying that if they wanted something
specific, they would not have been that specific?
Nope.
They would have been intentionally vague and ambiguous
so that perhaps their intentions were not carried out?
Nope.
That might be the dumbest thing I've read this week.
No surprise given that you wrote it.
I'm beginning to think you're just a troll.
Not a shred of evidence that you are actually capable of
thought, let alone even being able to manage a viable troll.

No surprise that the best you ever managed is legal parasite.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
You are arguing that their lack of specificity
suggests they had something specific in mind.
Wrong.
So they didn't have anything specific in mind?
Didnt say that.
That's what he was trying to tell you.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
Strictly speaking, one could even say that protection is
limited to written material and discoveries or inventions.
In any case, Congress (bribed by large corporations)
long ago distorted the principle beyond recognition.
Deadrat
2008-06-03 22:58:05 UTC
Permalink
"Rod Speed" <***@gmail.com> wrote in news:***@mid.individual.net:

<snipped: useless material>

Oh, look! Nothing left!

But he did say, "dick." Heh, heh.
Rod Speed
2008-06-04 00:46:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deadrat
<snipped: useless material>
Oh, look! Nothing left!
But he did say, "dick." Heh, heh.
Any 2 year old could leave that for dead.

Get one to help you before posting again, if anyone is actually stupid enough to let you anywhere near one.
Larry
2008-06-03 23:48:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since this reflects no change. That particular
segment was carved out in the original constitution.
The writers of the Constitution intended copyright to be temporary
and of short duration, long enough to allow creators of IP to
benefit financially from their work in the same way that others do.
It was not intended to be an immortal golden goose.
You know this how?
From the explicit use of the words FOR LIMITED TIMES.
For limited times does not mean for temporary and short times, even if you
type it in all caps.
Never ever said it did.
Well, you said you don't think that the current law is for a limited
time.
Post by Rod Speed
Heck, the creator's life plus 3 centuries is a limited time.
Perhaps the limit is practically meaningless, but it is a limit.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
If that's the best retort you can come up with, I'll take it as a
concession of my point.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
As I mentioned they did not specific any kind of time
leaving up to the legislative to decide how long is long.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since they were the ones that specifically put in the wording.
No, they didn't put that in the wording. This is what they said (in reference
"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by
securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive
right to their respective writings and discoveries; [...]"
Which is exactly my point.
Nope.
No, that's not his point?
Between the way you respond to this guy and the way you respond to Deadrat,
I think you argue for the sake of it without even understanding the matter at hand.
Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh ?
I try not to. I have the self-awareness to ask for help or explanation
when I think I'd benefit from it.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
They did not set down a specific time,
They did however specify FOR LIMITED TIMES.
And there is a limit under the law.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
thus leaving explicitly leaving the ability to define "limited time" to
the Congress.
And 100 years after the author is dead doesnt qualify.
What is your legal basis for saying this?
What is yours ?
What is my basis for asking you a question?

The constitution says "for a limited time." Current law provides for a
limited amount of time. A long time to be sure, but there is a limit on
it.

That's my basis. Now put up or shut up. Frankly, I think you're
incapable of doing either.
Post by Rod Speed
That is a limited time. 101 years after the author dies, the right
is over. In other words, it is held for a limited, albeit long, time.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
But since you disagree, tell us what *you* would consider
to be the cutoff of "limited"? 5 years? 10? 50? 100?
Just how many of you are there between those ears, parasite ?
What do you think is the cutoff for "limited"? You've twisted the
English language so that the limit under current law doesn't qualify as
a "limited time," so I wonder what you think a "limit" is.

Try. To. Keep. Up. I'm trying to engage you in actual substantive
discussion where you defend and articulate your views. You're shying
away from it and engaging in personal attacks instead. Why is that?
Because your position is indefensible, perhaps?
Post by Rod Speed
And whatever you think the cutoff is, please provide support for the
position that this is the proper endpoint for the definition of "limited."
For this exercise, you can use statutes, case law, the Constitution,
legislative history, papers of the founding fathers, or anything else
at your disposal. The only thing you can't do is say "100 years
after the author is dead doesn't qualify because I said so."
You get no say what so ever on what anyone else can say, parasite.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
In other areas where they desired specificity, they included
actual language outlining what they wanted. From terms of the
president to composition of the Senate to overriding vetoes.
Lot easier to be explicit with that.
Whether it is easier or not doesn't matter.
Wrong, as always.
The Constitution could have put a numerical limit on this, but it doesn't.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
I'm not sure what that is. A rocket scientist is a scientist, not a
lawyer. A lawyer isn't a rocket scientist. And a non-human living
organism can't be either a rocket scientist or a lawyer.
Post by Rod Speed
It says "limited" and therefore leaves it up to Congress for further definition.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
I am quite sure I can interpret statutes and apply canons of
Constitutional construction (do you even know what that means?) and you
can't.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
It's hard to imagine that "limited times" extended a hundred years
beyond the death of the authors and inventors in question. Indeed,
it's hard to see how it could even cover their lifetimes. Clearly,
something less than the lifetime of the concerned parties was
intended, otherwise it wouldn't have been written this way.
Nope.
Yep.
What do you base the assertion that it "clearly" is supposed to be
shorter than their lifetime on? Comments made by the founding
fathers? Their contemporary writings? Early case law? Writings
of constitutional scholars? Anything other than your say-so?
Your claims in spades.
I told you where my claim gets its support from. The constitution
itself. It's time for you to back up your postion.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
If they wanted something specific, they would have included something specific.
Wrong.
Are you saying that if they wanted something
specific, they would not have been that specific?
Nope.
They would have been intentionally vague and ambiguous
so that perhaps their intentions were not carried out?
Nope.
That might be the dumbest thing I've read this week.
No surprise given that you wrote it.
Perhaps the fact that no one even understands what you are saying is
instructive as to your communication skills, ya think?
Post by Rod Speed
I'm beginning to think you're just a troll.
Not a shred of evidence that you are actually capable of
thought, let alone even being able to manage a viable troll.
OK, I'll accept your concession. You're not just a run-of-the-mill
troll, you're an unmanageable viable troll. Whatever that is.
Post by Rod Speed
No surprise that the best you ever managed is legal parasite.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
You are arguing that their lack of specificity
suggests they had something specific in mind.
Wrong.
So they didn't have anything specific in mind?
Didnt say that.
That's what he was trying to tell you.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
Strictly speaking, one could even say that protection is
limited to written material and discoveries or inventions.
In any case, Congress (bribed by large corporations)
long ago distorted the principle beyond recognition.
Rod Speed
2008-06-04 00:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since this reflects no change. That particular
segment was carved out in the original constitution.
The writers of the Constitution intended copyright to be
temporary and of short duration, long enough to allow creators
of IP to benefit financially from their work in the same way
that others do. It was not intended to be an immortal golden goose.
You know this how?
From the explicit use of the words FOR LIMITED TIMES.
For limited times does not mean for temporary and short times, even if you type it in all caps.
Never ever said it did.
Well, you said you don't think that the current law is for a limited time.
You're lying, as always.
Post by Rod Speed
Heck, the creator's life plus 3 centuries is a limited time.
Perhaps the limit is practically meaningless, but it is a limit.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
If that's the best retort you can come up with,
I'll take it as a concession of my point.
That shit of yours in spades, parasite.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
As I mentioned they did not specific any kind of time
leaving up to the legislative to decide how long is long.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since they were the ones that specifically put in the wording.
No, they didn't put that in the wording. This is what they said (in reference
"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by
securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive
right to their respective writings and discoveries; [...]"
Which is exactly my point.
Nope.
No, that's not his point?
Between the way you respond to this guy and the way
you respond to Deadrat, I think you argue for the sake
of it without even understanding the matter at hand.
Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh ?
I try not to.
Try harder.
I have the self-awareness to ask for help or
explanation when I think I'd benefit from it.
You're lying, as always.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
They did not set down a specific time,
They did however specify FOR LIMITED TIMES.
And there is a limit under the law.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
thus leaving explicitly leaving the ability to define "limited time" to the Congress.
And 100 years after the author is dead doesnt qualify.
What is your legal basis for saying this?
What is yours ?
What is my basis for asking you a question?
Nope.
The constitution says "for a limited time."
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
Current law provides for a limited amount of time.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
A long time to be sure, but there is a limit on it.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
That's my basis.
Your problem.
Now put up or shut up.
Go and fuck yourself, again.
Frankly, I think you're incapable of doing either.
Not a shred of evidence that you are actually capable of thought,
or even being able to bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag either.
Post by Rod Speed
That is a limited time. 101 years after the author dies, the right
is over. In other words, it is held for a limited, albeit long, time.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
But since you disagree, tell us what *you* would consider
to be the cutoff of "limited"? 5 years? 10? 50? 100?
Just how many of you are there between those ears, parasite ?
What do you think is the cutoff for "limited"?
Never ever said there was, parasite.
You've twisted the English language so that the limit
under current law doesn't qualify as a "limited time,"
You're lying, as always.
so I wonder what you think a "limit" is.
Your problem, as always.
Try. To. Keep. Up.
Go. And. Fuck. Yourself. Again.
I'm trying to engage you in actual substantive discussion
where you defend and articulate your views.
You're lying, as always.
You're shying away from it and engaging in personal attacks instead.
Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh ?
Why is that?
Ask youself why you do that, parasite.
Because your position is indefensible, perhaps?
In your case, absolutely.
Post by Rod Speed
And whatever you think the cutoff is, please provide support for
the position that this is the proper endpoint for the definition of
"limited." For this exercise, you can use statutes, case law, the
Constitution, legislative history, papers of the founding fathers,
or anything else
at your disposal. The only thing you can't do is say "100 years
after the author is dead doesn't qualify because I said so."
You get no say what so ever on what anyone else can say, parasite.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
In other areas where they desired specificity, they included
actual language outlining what they wanted. From terms of the
president to composition of the Senate to overriding vetoes.
Lot easier to be explicit with that.
Whether it is easier or not doesn't matter.
Wrong, as always.
The Constitution could have put a numerical limit on this, but it doesn't.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
I'm not sure what that is.
Your problem, as always.
A rocket scientist is a scientist, not a lawyer.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
A lawyer isn't a rocket scientist.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
And a non-human living organism can't be either a rocket scientist or a lawyer.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
Post by Rod Speed
It says "limited" and therefore leaves it up to Congress for further definition.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
I am quite sure I can interpret statutes and apply canons of Constitutional construction
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
(do you even know what that means?)
That you have your dick in your hand, as always.
and you can't.
Pathetic.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
It's hard to imagine that "limited times" extended a hundred
years beyond the death of the authors and inventors in question.
Indeed, it's hard to see how it could even cover their
lifetimes. Clearly, something less than the lifetime of the
concerned parties was intended, otherwise it wouldn't have been
written this way.
Nope.
Yep.
What do you base the assertion that it "clearly" is supposed to be
shorter than their lifetime on? Comments made by the founding
fathers? Their contemporary writings? Early case law? Writings
of constitutional scholars? Anything other than your say-so?
Your claims in spades.
I told you where my claim gets its support from.
You're lying, as always.
The constitution itself. It's time for you to back up your postion.
Its time for you to go and fuck yourself, again.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
If they wanted something specific, they would have included something specific.
Wrong.
Are you saying that if they wanted something
specific, they would not have been that specific?
Nope.
They would have been intentionally vague and ambiguous
so that perhaps their intentions were not carried out?
Nope.
That might be the dumbest thing I've read this week.
No surprise given that you wrote it.
Perhaps the fact that no one even understands what you are saying
You're lying, as always.
is instructive as to your communication skills, ya think?
Nope, just a commentary on your pathetic excuse for bullshit.
Post by Rod Speed
I'm beginning to think you're just a troll.
Not a shred of evidence that you are actually capable of
thought, let alone even being able to manage a viable troll.
OK, I'll accept your concession.
Pathetic.
You're not just a run-of-the-mill troll, you're an
unmanageable viable troll. Whatever that is.
Pathetic.
Post by Rod Speed
No surprise that the best you ever managed is legal parasite.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
You are arguing that their lack of specificity
suggests they had something specific in mind.
Wrong.
So they didn't have anything specific in mind?
Didnt say that.
That's what he was trying to tell you.
Wrong, as always.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
Strictly speaking, one could even say that protection is
limited to written material and discoveries or inventions.
In any case, Congress (bribed by large corporations)
long ago distorted the principle beyond recognition.
Deadrat
2008-06-04 01:08:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since this reflects no change. That particular
segment was carved out in the original constitution.
The writers of the Constitution intended copyright to be
temporary and of short duration, long enough to allow creators
of IP to benefit financially from their work in the same way
that others do. It was not intended to be an immortal golden
goose.
You know this how?
From the explicit use of the words FOR LIMITED TIMES.
For limited times does not mean for temporary and short times, even
if you type it in all caps.
Never ever said it did.
Well, you said you don't think that the current law is for a limited
time.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Heck, the creator's life plus 3 centuries is a limited time.
Perhaps the limit is practically meaningless, but it is a limit.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
If that's the best retort you can come up with, I'll take it as a
concession of my point.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
As I mentioned they did not specific any kind of time
leaving up to the legislative to decide how long is long.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since they were the ones that specifically put in the wording.
No, they didn't put that in the wording. This is what they said (in reference
"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by
securing for limited times to authors and inventors the
exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
[...]"
Which is exactly my point.
Nope.
No, that's not his point?
Between the way you respond to this guy and the way you respond to
Deadrat, I think you argue for the sake of it without even
understanding the matter at hand.
Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh ?
I try not to. I have the self-awareness to ask for help or
explanation when I think I'd benefit from it.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
They did not set down a specific time,
They did however specify FOR LIMITED TIMES.
And there is a limit under the law.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
thus leaving explicitly leaving the ability to define "limited
time" to the Congress.
And 100 years after the author is dead doesnt qualify.
What is your legal basis for saying this?
What is yours ?
What is my basis for asking you a question?
The constitution says "for a limited time." Current law provides for
a limited amount of time. A long time to be sure, but there is a
limit on it.
That's my basis. Now put up or shut up. Frankly, I think you're
incapable of doing either.
The "current law" is the Copyright Term Extension Act, sometimes called
the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act after its sponsor, the water
carrier for corporate interests and former husband of Cher. The law has
also been called the Mickey Mouse Protection Act because it allowed
Disney extra time to control the cartoon.

The Supreme Court heard a challenge to the law (Eldred v. Ashcroft 537
US186 (2003)). The Court held by 7-2 that limited means having a limit,
no matter how long, and that the law was Constitutional.

<snip>
Larry
2008-06-04 02:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deadrat
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since this reflects no change. That particular
segment was carved out in the original constitution.
The writers of the Constitution intended copyright to be
temporary and of short duration, long enough to allow creators
of IP to benefit financially from their work in the same way
that others do. It was not intended to be an immortal golden
goose.
You know this how?
From the explicit use of the words FOR LIMITED TIMES.
For limited times does not mean for temporary and short times, even
if you type it in all caps.
Never ever said it did.
Well, you said you don't think that the current law is for a limited
time.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Heck, the creator's life plus 3 centuries is a limited time.
Perhaps the limit is practically meaningless, but it is a limit.
Let go of your dick before you end up completely blind.
If that's the best retort you can come up with, I'll take it as a
concession of my point.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
As I mentioned they did not specific any kind of time
leaving up to the legislative to decide how long is long.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Kurt Ullman
Apparently since they were the ones that specifically put in the wording.
No, they didn't put that in the wording. This is what they said
(in reference
"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by
securing for limited times to authors and inventors the
exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
[...]"
Which is exactly my point.
Nope.
No, that's not his point?
Between the way you respond to this guy and the way you respond to
Deadrat, I think you argue for the sake of it without even
understanding the matter at hand.
Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh ?
I try not to. I have the self-awareness to ask for help or
explanation when I think I'd benefit from it.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
They did not set down a specific time,
They did however specify FOR LIMITED TIMES.
And there is a limit under the law.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist legal parasites ?
Post by Larry
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Kurt Ullman
thus leaving explicitly leaving the ability to define "limited
time" to the Congress.
And 100 years after the author is dead doesnt qualify.
What is your legal basis for saying this?
What is yours ?
What is my basis for asking you a question?
The constitution says "for a limited time." Current law provides for
a limited amount of time. A long time to be sure, but there is a
limit on it.
That's my basis. Now put up or shut up. Frankly, I think you're
incapable of doing either.
The "current law" is the Copyright Term Extension Act, sometimes called
the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act after its sponsor, the water
carrier for corporate interests and former husband of Cher. The law has
also been called the Mickey Mouse Protection Act because it allowed
Disney extra time to control the cartoon.
The Supreme Court heard a challenge to the law (Eldred v. Ashcroft 537
US186 (2003)). The Court held by 7-2 that limited means having a limit,
no matter how long, and that the law was Constitutional.
Deadrat, now the troll's going to accuse you of not substantiating your
claims!
Kurt Ullman
2008-06-04 00:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by Kurt Ullman
Which is exactly my point.
Nope.
No, that's not his point?
Between the way you respond to this guy and the way you respond to
Deadrat, I think you argue for the sake of it without even understanding
the matter at hand.
I always get a kick when the light bulb goes on. (g)
Post by Larry
I'm beginning to think you're just a troll.
See above...
(Or maybe since this is Tuesday and I am an NCIS fan: "Ya think
DiNozzo"?) (g).
Larry
2008-06-03 13:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Larry
They also had in mind the idea that slaves weren't real people. Ideas
change.
Have ideas changed so much that one segment of the population is entitled to
work once, and get paid forever (along with its descendants)?
An engineer builds a bridge, but he does not get paid each time someone drives
over it. A dentist implants artificial teeth, but he doesn't get paid each
time his patient eats. And yet a person who writes a song will get paid for
use of that song for the rest of his life, and so will his descendants.
Is that the type of fairness that the writers of the Constitution had in mind?
It absolutely is.

And there's no reason a dentist, or engineer, or anyone else, couldn't
get paid in the same way if they negotiated that into their contracts.
Mxsmanic
2008-06-03 14:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
It absolutely is.
And there's no reason a dentist, or engineer, or anyone else, couldn't
get paid in the same way if they negotiated that into their contracts.
How can it be absolutely fair if dentists, engineers, and others must
negotiate it into their contracts, whereas it is provided by law for artists?
Larry
2008-06-03 15:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Larry
It absolutely is.
And there's no reason a dentist, or engineer, or anyone else, couldn't
get paid in the same way if they negotiated that into their contracts.
How can it be absolutely fair if dentists, engineers, and others must
negotiate it into their contracts, whereas it is provided by law for artists?
You want it provided by law for those professions, too?

Write your Congressman.
Deadrat
2008-06-03 19:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Larry
It absolutely is.
And there's no reason a dentist, or engineer, or anyone else,
couldn't get paid in the same way if they negotiated that into their
contracts.
How can it be absolutely fair if dentists, engineers, and others must
negotiate it into their contracts, whereas it is provided by law for artists?
This isn't about "absolutely fair," something that probably doesn't exist.
It's about intellectual property law. And that implant isn't the dentist's
intellectual property, so if the dentist wants eating royalties, he's gonna
have to negotiate it with his patients.
Deadrat
2008-06-03 19:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Larry
They also had in mind the idea that slaves weren't real people.
Ideas change.
Have ideas changed so much that one segment of the population is
entitled to work once, and get paid forever (along with its
descendants)?
Please give us an example of anyone who works once and gets paid forever.
Excluding trust-fund babies, of course. Please give us an example of
anyone who works once and has his descendants paid forever.

Most welfare (which is what I assume you're talking about) goes to
children, and it's true that those little bastards just won't go out and
get jobs. But I think they do that just to annoy you.
Post by Mxsmanic
An engineer builds a bridge, but he does not get paid each time
someone drives over it. A dentist implants artificial teeth, but he
doesn't get paid each time his patient eats. And yet a person who
writes a song will get paid for use of that song for the rest of his
life, and so will his descendants.
Is that the type of fairness that the writers of the Constitution had in mind?
Well, let's ask them.

No, wait, ....
Gordon Burditt
2008-06-01 19:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by richard
M$ did not create the music. The program now includes a protective
device known as DRM that says, "no license, no listen".
That sir, is illegal.
Why is this illegal? If you think it is, please the statute it violates
DRM *as often practiced* is *FALSE ADVERTISING*.

You purchase music at an online store and load it on your computer.
There is no indication when you BUY it (and there's no indication
that it's anything but a purchase during that transaction) that the
music has a limited number of plays or only lasts for so long or
requires an internet connection to PLAY it (laptops often have
intermittent network connectivity). One day it quits working. Why?
Because the company doing the DRM (which you may never have heard
of before) decided not to support it any more. Or that company
goes bankrupt. It's happened over and over again.

You can be sure that there would be a big uproar if it turns out
that Ford Motor Company cars won't make left turns if Ford goes
bankrupt.
Kurt Ullman
2008-06-01 20:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon Burditt
You purchase music at an online store and load it on your computer.
There is no indication when you BUY it (and there's no indication
that it's anything but a purchase during that transaction) that the
music has a limited number of plays or only lasts for so long or
requires an internet connection to PLAY it (laptops often have
intermittent network connectivity). One day it quits working. Why?
Because the company doing the DRM (which you may never have heard
of before) decided not to support it any more. Or that company
goes bankrupt. It's happened over and over again.
I only have dealt with iTune, but the license agreement, use
agreements and other similar stuff that you have to click on that you
understand after you have ignored it, pretty much say all of the above.
You have problems with all sorts of outdated technologies, I don't see
that many people thinking the fact they can no longer play their 78s or
their wire recordings that is false advertising.
Post by Gordon Burditt
You can be sure that there would be a big uproar if it turns out
that Ford Motor Company cars won't make left turns if Ford goes
bankrupt.
Whole bunches of cars over the years have had that happen to. Older
cars you can have trouble getting parts for even if the company remains
in business.
richard
2008-06-02 04:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon Burditt
Post by Larry
Post by richard
M$ did not create the music. The program now includes a protective
device known as DRM that says, "no license, no listen".
That sir, is illegal.
Why is this illegal? If you think it is, please the statute it violates
DRM *as often practiced* is *FALSE ADVERTISING*.
You purchase music at an online store and load it on your computer.
There is no indication when you BUY it (and there's no indication
that it's anything but a purchase during that transaction) that the
music has a limited number of plays or only lasts for so long or
requires an internet connection to PLAY it (laptops often have
intermittent network connectivity). One day it quits working. Why?
Because the company doing the DRM (which you may never have heard
of before) decided not to support it any more. Or that company
goes bankrupt. It's happened over and over again.
You can be sure that there would be a big uproar if it turns out
that Ford Motor Company cars won't make left turns if Ford goes
bankrupt.
Exactly correct.

DRM is a concept in agreement with the RIAA and M$.
From what I've read, these so called licenses may also place a limit
on how many times you can play the music. Such as 20 or 30 times.
After that, buy another license.
Consumers are not made aware of this license requirement until AFTER
the sale and the package is opened.

You go to walmart and buy a new CD. In order to play the music, you
must have Windows media player. You're not told upfront that this is
required to play the music.

Let's say you buy a CD that is of Beethoven's music. Does M$ have the
legal right to restrict your enjoyment of this uncopyrighted music? No
it does not. Again, it is an illegal attempt by M$ to control how you
enjoy music. M$ and the RIAA forces the publishers to produce the
music in the wma format so that YOU must use M$ products and thusly,
need a license which is purchased seperately.

IMHO, that is in direct violation of the copyright laws.
Larry
2008-06-02 04:44:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Let's say you buy a CD that is of Beethoven's music. Does M$ have the
legal right to restrict your enjoyment of this uncopyrighted music? No
it does not.
Of course not. Just buy it in a format that doesn't require a Microsoft
product to enjoy it, and they can't limit your use in any way.

But if you buy it in a format that requires the use of Microsoft
software, they certainly can control how their software is used.
Post by richard
Again, it is an illegal attempt by M$ to control how you
enjoy music.
Richard, from now on, every time you claim something is illegal but
don't provide a statute or court case (heck, I'll settle for a news
story discussing the issue and stating it is illegal) I'm going to call
you out on it.

So please provide a cite for the claim that Microsoft's implementation
Post by richard
M$ and the RIAA forces the publishers to produce the
music in the wma format so that YOU must use M$ products and thusly,
need a license which is purchased seperately.
Why are publishers forced to use any specific format? Every music CD I
have ever owned or listened to works just fine on my CD player, and I
don't need Microsoft products to listen to it.
Post by richard
IMHO, that is in direct violation of the copyright laws.
What law do you think it violates? Please provide a cite to the
particular law here:
Deadrat
2008-06-02 04:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Post by Gordon Burditt
Post by Larry
Post by richard
M$ did not create the music. The program now includes a protective
device known as DRM that says, "no license, no listen".
That sir, is illegal.
Why is this illegal? If you think it is, please the statute it
DRM *as often practiced* is *FALSE ADVERTISING*.
You purchase music at an online store and load it on your computer.
There is no indication when you BUY it (and there's no indication
that it's anything but a purchase during that transaction) that the
music has a limited number of plays or only lasts for so long or
requires an internet connection to PLAY it (laptops often have
intermittent network connectivity). One day it quits working. Why?
Because the company doing the DRM (which you may never have heard
of before) decided not to support it any more. Or that company
goes bankrupt. It's happened over and over again.
You can be sure that there would be a big uproar if it turns out
that Ford Motor Company cars won't make left turns if Ford goes
bankrupt.
Exactly correct.
DRM is a concept in agreement with the RIAA and M$.
From what I've read, these so called licenses may also place a limit
on how many times you can play the music. Such as 20 or 30 times.
After that, buy another license.
Consumers are not made aware of this license requirement until AFTER
the sale and the package is opened.
You go to walmart and buy a new CD. In order to play the music, you
must have Windows media player. You're not told upfront that this is
required to play the music.
Let's say you buy a CD that is of Beethoven's music. Does M$ have the
legal right to restrict your enjoyment of this uncopyrighted music? No
it does not.
Right. Play it yourself on your piano.
Post by richard
Again, it is an illegal attempt by M$ to control how you
enjoy music.
The performance is copyrighted independently of the music.
Post by richard
M$ and the RIAA forces the publishers to produce the
music in the wma format so that YOU must use M$ products and thusly,
need a license which is purchased seperately.
How are they forcing the publishers to do this?
Post by richard
IMHO, that is in direct violation of the copyright laws.
Why? What are they copying illegally?
Mxsmanic
2008-06-03 11:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard
Consumers are not made aware of this license requirement until AFTER
the sale and the package is opened.
Contracts like this are invalid.
Post by richard
Let's say you buy a CD that is of Beethoven's music. Does M$ have the
legal right to restrict your enjoyment of this uncopyrighted music?
Beethoven's music is in the public domain ... but specific performances of
that music recorded on CD are protected by copyright, unless copyright has
expired (which it is never, ever likely to do again, now that the law is
changed each time expiration dates approach).
Post by richard
Again, it is an illegal attempt by M$ to control how you
enjoy music.
Microsoft is not the villain here; the villains are the IP holders pressuring
Microsoft to serve them, instead of Microsoft's paying customers.
Post by richard
IMHO, that is in direct violation of the copyright laws.
Which laws? The relatively simple copyright laws in the U.S. were rewritten a
few years ago to make them ten times more complicated and a zillion times more
favorable to large corporate IP holders.
Larry
2008-06-03 13:19:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by richard
Consumers are not made aware of this license requirement until AFTER
the sale and the package is opened.
Contracts like this are invalid.
Post by richard
Let's say you buy a CD that is of Beethoven's music. Does M$ have the
legal right to restrict your enjoyment of this uncopyrighted music?
Beethoven's music is in the public domain ... but specific performances of
that music recorded on CD are protected by copyright, unless copyright has
expired (which it is never, ever likely to do again, now that the law is
changed each time expiration dates approach).
How can you say this? Some work, somewhere, is always nearing its
expiration date. It's not like every copyrighted performance was
performed on the same day.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by richard
Again, it is an illegal attempt by M$ to control how you
enjoy music.
Microsoft is not the villain here; the villains are the IP holders pressuring
Microsoft to serve them, instead of Microsoft's paying customers.
So the "villians" are people who are trying to get paid for their labor?
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by richard
IMHO, that is in direct violation of the copyright laws.
Which laws? The relatively simple copyright laws in the U.S. were rewritten a
few years ago to make them ten times more complicated and a zillion times more
favorable to large corporate IP holders.
Mxsmanic
2008-06-03 14:24:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
How can you say this? Some work, somewhere, is always nearing its
expiration date.
That matters not if continual extensions are granted before the actual
expiration date is reached.
Post by Larry
It's not like every copyrighted performance was performed on the same day.
Things being created now will still be restricted even after your
great-grandchildren are dead.
Post by Larry
So the "villians" are people who are trying to get paid for their labor?
The villains are people who are trying to get paid for someone else's labor.
Music and movie companies are not the creators of content, just the copyright
holders. And they want to be paid forever, again and again, not just once,
like everyone else. So not only do they live off someone else's work, but
they want to be paid for it in perpetuity.
Larry
2008-06-03 15:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Larry
How can you say this? Some work, somewhere, is always nearing its
expiration date.
That matters not if continual extensions are granted before the actual
expiration date is reached.
Post by Larry
It's not like every copyrighted performance was performed on the same day.
Things being created now will still be restricted even after your
great-grandchildren are dead.
And I think that's a good thing. If I create something, why can't I
have absolute control over who uses it, how, and when?
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Larry
So the "villians" are people who are trying to get paid for their labor?
The villains are people who are trying to get paid for someone else's labor.
Music and movie companies are not the creators of content, just the copyright
holders. And they want to be paid forever, again and again, not just once,
like everyone else. So not only do they live off someone else's work, but
they want to be paid for it in perpetuity.
And consumers don't seem to mind, since we keep buying the music and
movies.
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